Declarations of Independence: Peter Berkowitz on America and Israel’s Origins and Evolutions

- It is Monday, January 5th, 2026, and you're listening to Matters of Policy and Politics, a podcast devoted to the discussion of policy research from the Hoover Institution, as well as issues of local, national and geopolitical concern. I'm Bill Whalen. I'm the Hoover Institutions for Virginia Hobbs Carpenter Distinguished Policy fellow in journalism. I'm not the only fellow who podcast. If you don't believe me, go to our website with hoover.org. Actually go to hoover.org/podcast. You'll find the whole fleet of what we do. You name the topic and we cover it. We also have, by the way, the audio version of the GoodFellows broadcast that I do with Niall Ferguson, John Cochrane and H.R. McMaster. So you don't wanna miss that. Now, this is the first podcast of the New Year, obviously, and I thought we would take one big topic, which is the founding of Preservation of Free societies, and look at two such nations. A question of where America stands is it approaches its 250th birthday in July, and the status of a younger free country in the Middle East. I'm referring of course, to the state of Israel, which will celebrate its 80th anniversary of its establishment on I believe, may the 14th, 2028. So that's still two years off into the future, sharing his insights on this and other topics. Today it's my pleasure to welcome to the podcast for the first time my colleague, Peter Berkowitz. Peter Berkowitz is the Hoover Institution's Tad and Diane Toby, senior fellow. He's taught numerous classes on constitutional law and jurisprudence, and has led many a seminar on the principles of freedom. As a part of Stanford University Civics initiative, he's taught a class called Varieties of Conservatism in America that takes students on a journey through the works of John Locke. And Carl Marks the inspiration behind the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, all the way to more modern times in the thinking of Friedrich Hayek and Russell Kirk. During the first Trump administration, Peter Berkowitz served as director of the state department's policy planning staff in the Office of the Secretary. You might recognize Peter's byline from his excellent columns that appear online at Real Clear Politics are one of the many great books he's written over his decades and hired learning and public policy that includes in this last September, a book called Explaining Israel, the Jewish State, the Middle East in America. Peter joins us today having just returned from Israel. Peter, it's great to see you in what I assume is a very jet lag condition.

- Bill, it's great to be with you.

- So let's talk first a little bit about Peter Berkowitz, if you don't mind. Our viewers shouldn't, I'm always, our viewers are curious as to how one ends up as a Hoover fellow. And I did a little digging on you, and here's what we found Peter Berkowitz attended of all things Yale Law School, and when you go to Yale Law School, Peter, it seems to me there's a high road and low road. You can be a future president of the United States like Bill Clinton, or you could be a future very troubled son of a president like Hunter Biden. So how, so how did you end up acting DB Peter and not Chase dollars outta Yale Law School?

- Yes. Well, it's, as you can imagine, it's a very long story and I need to make, I need to offer you a short version of it.

- Yes.

- The short version of it was that I was studying political science as a graduate student concentrating in the history of political philosophy in the Yale Political Science Department, and I reached, this was many, a decades ago. I reached the conclusion that there would be no place in the academy for the likes of me. Now, I was helped to reach this conclusion by scholars surrounding me, by the conduct of the discipline, by the messages explicit and implicit that I was receiving. I was very grateful for the time I had to study the history of political philosophy, but the time had come to move on, I thought and get myself a proper job. And so I, I enrolled in law school. However, I quickly discovered in law school that I would probably not well suited to the life of a lawyer. And second, I actually really did miss my studies of the history of political philosophy. So shortly after arriving law school, I began scheming on how to, how to continue my studies. And again, to make a very long story short, it turned out much to my surprise that my doctoral dissertation won a, a prize, a kind of good housekeeping stamp of approval from the American Political Science Association. This made me competitive for a position it turns out in the Department of Government at Harvard University. And in fact, upon leaving Yale Law School, I went directly to teaching the history of political philosophy in the Department of Government at Harvard.

- And what brought you to the Hoover Institution?

- What brought me to the institution was a fellow by the name of Dave Brady in the mid nineties when I was still a young assistant professor, our wonderful colleague, Dave, who a distinguished political scientist and a senior fellow at, at the Hoover Institution visited Harvard for a year. And in his, in Imitable way, Dave befriended me one day. It was quite by accident, I'm sure early on in the semester he was visiting. It was late on Friday afternoon, the hallways were empty. I was there, I didn't recognize this guy. He stopped me in the hall and he said, Hey, I got a question for you. I said, what's that? He said, you ever heard of this guy named Berkowitz? I said, well, yes, I'm, I'm Berkowitz. He said, well, good. They told me that you're the only political theorist here worth talking to. My name's Brady, and I'm from Stanford. And that's how I met Dave Brady. We stayed in touch, and after I left Harvard University in a cloud of controversy, a controversy that eventually turned into a lawsuit, Dave kept an eye on me and Dave. After I had joined the faculty at George Mason Law School, Dave arranged for me to come visit Hoover. Dave backed an initial position for me, and Dave continued to back me all the way to an appointment as senior fellow.

- You were one of the first people I met at Hoover, Peter, and I quickly deduced that you were something of a genius because you managed to live on the east coast, but very smartly visit California and more to the point visit California in the summertime. So thus you have voted Washington's heat and humidity for several months. Brilliant.

- Thank you. Thank you for noticing.

- Okay, let's get down to business here. How many can you ballpark, Peter? How many times you've been to Israel?

- Yes, three or four times a year for more than 20 years. Now that gets me in the,

- You're well into triple digits.

- Yes, into triple digits if you take the whole life, yes.

- Okay. I have never been, and I've always wanted to go, and hopefully someday I will. I've heard that when you go to Israel, the first thing that strikes you is geography in terms of just how confined the space is. I looked this up, Peter Israel is something like 8,600 square miles, which is about the size of New Jersey. The United States of America is about 3.8 million square miles. Me, ac crude math tells me that you could stash about 440 Israels instead of inside of one America, if you will. But I think there's something also very different, which I'd like you to discuss, and that's one of security. I go to bed at night and my door is locked, but I sleep peacefully because I'm not worried about an intruder to the extent there's noise outside, it's an airplane flying into the San Francisco airport. I'm not hearing sirens at night. I'm not worried about somebody maring into my community and killing women and children slaughtering them. How does a citizen of Israel just live on a daily basis, Peter, knowing that this difficult existence hangs over their head every day?

- It's a, it's a wonderful question. I've not myself gotten to the bottom of it. Part of the answer is that human beings are, can be amazingly strong and resilient creatures. Partly the answer is that Israelis have never known an alternative. Partly it is that Israelis have a, have a citizens' army. The vast majority of people serve young men and young women. Military service is mandatory typically now more than three years for young men, more than two years for young women. Still more, if you're an officer, which many of Israel's most talented, talented young men, men, women become, and they've acquired a, a heritage now of, of defending themselves. These last two years, since more than two years, since the massacres of October 7th, 2023, have been especially challenging. It is included among other things. As you know, the loss of 1200 rail Israelis killed in cold blood on October 7th, the kidnapping of 251 a year of, of almost daily rocket fire from, from Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, several missile barrages ballistic and cruise missile barrages from Iran inclu and, and including in June, 2025, a 12 day battle with Iran in which Israelis severely degraded Iran's capacity to enrich uranium and missile supplies, missile stockpiles and missile production capabilities. But Israel also was targeted with 500 ballistic missiles by Iran. Imagine 500 ballistic missiles in the country, roughly the size of New Jersey. Israel's extraordinary air defense systems. I think the best in the world knocked down approximately 90% of those ballistic missiles. That means about 50 though got through ballistic missiles, got through, and those did extensive damage to Israeli infrastructure. Fortunately, because Israel was well, well prepared, because all homes are built with shelters, relatively few people were, were injured and killed. But, but the damage to the country was in excess, I believe, of one $1 billion. So whatever the causes, we have to say that the Israelis have showed a level of fortitude and resilience and courage and defense of their country that many people thought western style liberal democracies were no longer capable of.

- Peter, we're only five days into 2020, it's six. But is this year something of a crossroads for Israel? And I'm thinking three things. Number one, the peace process. Number two, the question of what, if any military action will be taken against a brand, something which I think Benjamin, Nate and Yahoo and Donald Trump talked about over New Year's Eve, our laga. But then thirdly, what life looks like after maybe ni and Yahoo. Because, because he cannot govern forever. And I wonder if, if Israel is perhaps destined for a scenario similar to England in 1945, where it transitioned very quickly from Churchill into a different kind of government.

- So e each of those peace process Iran, Israel, after Netanyahu is again a, a big, big issue. We address each of these peace process. President Trump proposed a 20 point plan in late September, early October, president Trump announced that both sides had agreed to the plan. This was not accurate. Israel, in principle, agreed to the plan with qualifications. Hamas only agreed to return to the living hostages and the bodies of the deceased hostages in exchange for 1,950 detained Palestinians, 250 of whom had been convicted of serious crimes. That part of the plan has been transacted almost in its entirety. Israelis received with jubilation the last of the 20 living hostages and all, but one of the bodies of the deceased hostages is Israel kept its side of the bargain, return the Palestinian detainees. But what about the rest of the peace plan? President Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner and Trump's White House special envoy, Steve Whitcoff a few weeks ago, announced a big plan for rebuilding Gaza Project Sunrise, they called it,

- Right?

- They envisage a hundred billion. That's a billion dollars of investment turning Gaza into a high tech wonder. There is a problem though. The Trump peace plan calls for Hamas to be disarmed, for Gaza to be demilitarized, and for the Palestinian population, Gaza to be de radicalized. Who's going to do that? The Saudis have made clear, it's not some international stabilization force that the peace plan envisaged. It's extremely unlikely that the, that Hamas is going to disarm itself. And Demilitarize participate in the demilitarization of Gaza since Hamas' very reason for being is the destruction of Israel as they pro clearly proclaim in their charter of 1988. And they've never tired of affirming since then. That leaves only one alternative for disarming Hamas, and that's the Israel defense forces. But without the disarming of Hamas, without the demilitarization of Gaza, without the deradicalization of the Palestinian people, it's hard to see how a real peace can be achieved. There is a caveat. Israel still controls one half of the territory of the Gaza Strip. Relatively few Palestinians live there. There's no Hamas control of that area. I suppose rebuilding could begin there. And slowly, slowly, Israel, the United States, the Saudis and others working together could invite Palestinians inside the Gaza part of Gaza and inside, inside of the Hamas part of Gaza to flow into the rebuilt part. Let's just say for now, that establishing stability, let alone peace, is still a, an upward battle in the Gaza Strip.

- Okay, so that's the plow share. Now let's talk about the sword, which is what to do about Iran,

- What to do about ran Absolutely right. Iran has been the principle source of instability in the Middle East for going on 40 years, although for more than 40 years, although it's taken many countries, many diplomats a long time to realize that Israel, several operations against Iran over the last two years have been nothing short of astonishing. Israel has effectively severely degraded the ring of fire that Iran had created around Israel is Israel, you know, was fighting the seven front war Iran backed Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Iran backed Hamas in the West Bank. Judean, Samaria, Iran backed Hezbollah in Lebanon. Iran backed militias in Iraq. Iran backed Houthis in Yemen, and the, the head of the octopus itself, Tehran. So over the last two years, Israel successfully degraded Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, I I left out Syria as sad. Syria Saad fell. The Houthis have been degraded. In addition, Israel has, has removed just about Iran's air defenses. It has severely degraded its weapons stockpiles and capacity to produce weapons and severely degraded its capacity to enrich new enrich uranium, which it did, of course, with the help of the United States President Trump's decision to send in fleet of B two bombers to finish off the work in Fordo and other installations. However, Irani has not renounced its war on the Jewish state. And by the way, it's war on the, the Sunni Arab monarchies as well. But we're gonna focus on Israel. The Atos of Iran have not renounced. Their war indications are that they have begun to rebuild their missile factories, replenish their missile stockpiles. Moreover, I believe the Iranians learned something important from the war with Israel in June, 2025. They actually can overwhelm Israel with missiles. It's true that Israel's air defenses performed with extraordinary effectiveness. They only let in about 50 of 500 missiles fired at them. But supposedly Iranians, instead of firing 500 missiles over 12 days, had fired 1,500 missiles. Then 150 would have struck Israel, and Lord knows what damage that could have been done. So Israel cannot allow and has made clear, will not allow Iran to rebuild its missile stockpiles. So if Israel will know, not allow that, but Iran is bent on replenishing his missile stockpiles, we should expect a clash in the coming year. We should. Israel will not allow Iran to rebuild its stockpiles.

- So it's interesting. I've, I've listened to a lot of podcasts on this topic, and there tend to be three topics that are speculating in terms of causes lli. One is Iran restocking missiles. The second is Iran trying to ramp up the nuclear program. But then thirdly, it would be a reaction to the human rights situation going on right now.

- Yes. Well, I think that Israel is not going to launch a strike on Iran because Iran is abusing the human rights, right? Of, of Iranians. However, and I think this has probably come to surprise to many people, one country has stepped up and said it is prepared to strike at Iran if it continues human rights abuses. And that country is the United States of America. President Trump declared just a few days ago that the United States is locked and loaded and threatened. Iran. If Iran abuses those who are demonstrating against the regime,

- And I think given what he did last year and what he just did in Venezuela, he should probably be taken seriously. Let's, Peter, let's quickly discuss Benjamin Netanyahu and what life looks like after Netanyahu in Israel.

- What it looks like, again, is very hard to say, but I can tell you this, Netanyahu's time in office now is surrounded with the most intense controversy. His supporters remain strong and enthusiastic. The opposition is intensely opposed to him. And the country's split about 50 50 on this. According to the polls. If an election were held today, the opposition would win a few more votes. However, it would only be able to form a government with the support of Arab parties, which is looked upon as a very controversial step, especially following the, the massacres of October 20, 20, 23. So it's, it is unknown today in January. What will, what will happen in elections which are scheduled to take place not later than late October or early November, but I am confident of this. Benjamin Netanyahu has been prime minister of Israel for all, but one year since 2009. It is not true that there is only one person in the country who is capable of leading Israel. His, at this point, his principle rival for the prime ministership, a man named Naftali Bennett, who, who has previously served as Prime Minister for short time, less than 12 months, I believe is an extremely capable man himself, a, a, a man of the right whose views about the region, views about Israel's place in it are not less hawkish than Netanyahu's, whose understanding of Israel's economy is not less sophisticated than Israel. Bennett actually became a wealthy man through as an entrepreneur in the high tech area. And, and Naftali Bennett is not less devoted to preserving Israel as a Jewish state that's also democratic and also protects its citizens' rights. So Israel can well survive and prosper in the post Netanyahu era.

- One last Israel question, Peter, before we segue to the United States in its 250th anniversary coming up, your book from last September explaining Israel, that Jewish state, the Middle East and America, it's a series of essays from your real clear politics writing that you've stitched together. So we're explaining Israel, what do you want the reader to take away from the book?

- I want the reader to understand the complexities of Israel and the greatness of of Israel. I do want them to understand that Israel was created in devotion to three principles or goods. We learned this from its Declaration of Independence from May, 1948. First, the declaration makes clear that this new state, which is coming into existence by the way, as five Arab armies are descending upon it with the intention of annihilating it. The Declar Declaration of Independent makes clear first that Israel is going to be a Jewish state, the nation state of the Jewish people. But second, it also makes clear that it's going to be a Jewish state that protects individual rights. Rights that it sees as not granted by states, but as in hearing in human beings. And third Israel's Declaration of Independence, like ours does not mention the word democracy, but makes clear that it's going to be the citizen of all its people and all will be represented in government. So the Declaration of Independence makes clear that Israel is a Jewish state, a state that protects rights and a kind of representative democracy. Now it's hard enough to combine democracy and individual rights, which we do, we seek to do in the United States. That's our command from the Declaration of Independence. Israel seeks to, to combine not only protecting individual freedom, giving expression to the will of the majority, but also being a Jewish state. Given the extraordinary national security concerns it's faced going on 80 years, I myself think its achievements are nothing short of extraordinary. And I want to for now, because time is short, just make one point. And that's about the protection of minority rights. There is no country in the Middle East that more aggressively protects the rights of individual Arabs and Muslims than the state of Israel. That is those Arabs and Muslims who are citizens of Israel, a little more than 20% of Israel's citizenry. It's got about 10 million people living it now. About 20% are Arabs. They have formal rights, no different from the Jews. It is the job of the state to protect them. Are there problems inside of Israel? I'm now not talking about the Palestinians who live in Judean, Sumerian, Gaza. I'm talking about the 20% of Israel century that is Arab. Most of them are Muslim. Are there problems? Yes, as there are problems in fully incorporating minorities in all Western style liberal democracies known to me, in light of the challenges in the region, has Israel done an extraordinary job? Yes.

- Alright, that's a good time to segue now to America at two 50. Question, Peter, where were you on July 4th, 1976? I guess I'm guessing you were, you were probably about a rising, maybe a rising senior in high school?

- Yeah, something like that. I would have almost certainly in the evening been watching fireworks and in the day playing tennis.

- Okay. And where do you plan to be this July the fourth?

- Excellent question.

- Always a good question for Washingtonian.

- Yes, I'm very likely to celebrate this July 4th in the nation's capital.

- Very good. Did you understand in 1976 the importance of the moment?

- I certainly did not. I certainly did not. Partly the, partly I attribute this to my calice as a young man, but partly I attribute this to already the failures of my education, which should have assumed that I was a callow young man in need of a proper education.

- Okay. And what about today's generation, the kid who is 16, 17, 18 year olds like you and I were back in 1976. Are they in a better or worse state? Peter, when it comes to understanding this republic,

- I suspect they're in a considerably worse state because, well, I did acquire, by the time I was a young teenager, a kind of very rough understanding of the declaration and the principle for which it stood, although I I did not appreciate it as I should, I did not revere it as I should. Today's young people, they're 12 or 13, or if they're 23 or 24, are, are more likely than not to have learned, to dislike the Declaration of Independence, to dislike America, to see America as a principle threat to freedom and justice in our world. So, so my head at least, was not filled with Slanders against the Declaration of Independence.

- I worry that there are competing narratives coming up this year, Peter. And one is the 1776 narrative, which is what a group of men did back 250 years ago in Philadelphia is remarkable because it was innovative, revolutionary, no pun intended, and it stood the test of time. The other narrative is the 1619 narrative, Peter, which is that America is actually built upon shame and should at all times feel bad about itself.

- Yes, I I I think that's right. I even hesitate to call your first option a narrative. It is in a technical sense, but it's the account, an accurate account of what took place in 1776, the 16th, what you call the 1619 narrative after the 1619 project. Right? The 2019, I believe summer of 2019 extravaganza, published by the New York Times magazine, was intended to, intended to recenter, reorient American understanding of what was what's most significant or distinctive about this country. Why according to the New York Times, was, is 1619 so important? Because it was the year in which 19 or 20 enslaved black people first set sure in the, in what came to be America. The thesis of the 1819 project is the deepest truths about America are contained in the fact that America gave, originally gave legal sanction to, to slavery. And the argument that that sensibility underwriting the legal sanction of slavery is woven into Americans most basic ideas and institutions. I believe this to be untrue, actually a smear on the United States. There was nowhere that I know of in the world that had formally outlawed slavery in the early 17th century when the first slaves arrived in what would become, what would become America. We should all agree that slavery is an evil institution, but that evil institution was widely practiced by humanity. And I believe that Abraham Lincoln was correct when he remarked long after the Declaration of Independence was proclaimed in 1776. Just how re, how, how remarkable that document was because in the midst of a political crisis, the colonies, now the United States were at war with the largest and richest empire in the world. The British Empire at that political moment, Jefferson and those who signed the declaration, gave expression to a universal statement that all human being, that all men by which they meant all human beings are created equal and endowed with certain unalienable rights among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. As Lincoln rightly pointed out, that principle enshrined in our declaration served as a standard for judging and condemning the evil practice of, of slavery. No other country ever before in human history had been established on the basis of a principle that condemned slavery as as contrary to essential

- Justice. Now, I mentioned in the introduction, Peter, that you served as the director of the state department's policy planning staff in the office of the secretary. This is the first Trump administration let the current iteration, and that includes us serving as Executive Secretary of the State Department's Commission on unalienable rights. This was when Mike Pompeo was running the State Department. What prompted the creation of the commission and what were you getting that by doing this?

- Yes, it was an extraordinary step that Secretary Pompeo took. Mike Pompeo was educated at West Point. He served in the US Army along the, along the Iron Curtain. He is a graduate of Harvard Law School, a very intelligent man, a great American patriot. And he understood deep in his bones that somehow human rights are essential to the American tradition. But he also observed that human rights had been hijacked, it had been hijacked by progressives to advance a largely progressive political agenda. Right? But Mike Pompeo remembered from his student days that the Declaration of Independence says the governments are instituted in order to secure inalienable rights. And he understood that an unalienable right is a right. That in its inherent in human beings, what kind of human beings, all human beings by virtue of their humanity. In other words, a human right anal right was a 18th century way of speaking about human rights. So Mike Pompeo was convinced that a, a return to the founding understanding of rights could shed light for us on what our nation was dedicated to and thereby could shed light on US foreign policy. So he created a commission to recover the founding understanding, to understand constitutional government informed by inalienable rights, and also to understand the obligations that the United States took on in 1948 when we voted to the General Assembly to adopt the universal Declaration of on human rights.

- Here are, I believe Peter Berkowitz's words, you said, quote, politicians, professors and activists demonstrate confusion about the logic of America's 17 s Declaration of Independence and about the assumptions undergoing the United Nations 1948 Universal Declaration of human Rights.

- Yes, in a way, both of these are powerful documents, but both are austere documents. If you look at human rights law today, you'll find dozens, hundreds of supposed human rights. But the unalienable rights listed in the declaration are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They're given expression in our constitution through the protection of some basic rights like religious liberty, freedom of expression, the right to assemble and petition, government, the right of the press, criminal justice protections right of contract and so on. Their, their power in a way comes from their austerity government, is to protect these individual rights. And this gives us, gives Americans space to engage in democratic politics and very importantly, to live our lives in accordance with our consciences as we see fit with our friends, in our communities, in our families, and so on. So our, this report of the Commission on Unalienable rights, which was drafted by 11 or 12 people, chaired by the great Mary Ann Glendon, does give an account of what's distinctive about the American rights tradition, what sorts of obligations we took on in 1948, and how a responsible US foreign policy will always be conscious of conscience, conscious of the America's commitment to protecting its own citizens', human rights, which can't help but affect how we understand our interests abroad.

- Peter, in the spirit of Israel turning 80 in 1948, what if you tasked the United Nations with redrafting a new Declaration of human rights 80 years after the original? What, what would happen?

- Well, I probably wouldn't in the first place ask them to draft a new Declaration of Human Rights. I would ask them to study the original declaration, universal Declaration of Human Rights and reorganize their conduct on multiple levels to bring it in accordance with the original declaration. And by the way, just as I would, it's not to America's 250th birthday, I would call on Americans not to, not to draft their own declaration of independence, but return to the 70 17 76 declaration, learn from it, understand how, how much of, how many of the achievements of America, what's greatest about America, is rooted in our commitments to it. And by the way, not to be, not to be a broken record on this, it also encourages Israelis to return to their Declaration of Independence. Don't draft a new one, be re-energized and restored revivified by embracing its commitment simultaneously to Israel as a Jewish state, a free state, and a democratic state.

- Let's put this in real world terms. Peter Venezuela is still a murky situation right now in terms of what government's going to emerge. And we don't know what the future holds for Iran, but let's assume for argument's sake that the Maduro regime is gone and Venezuela wants to transition to a legitimate democratic government. And let's also assume, Peter, that the theocracy collapses and now Iran wants to have a genuine democratic free society. How do you export the spirit of 1776 into those two very different societies?

- Well, I first note that you are inviting me to contemplate a very happy 2026 in which Venezuela is undertaking a democratic turn. And Iran has rid itself of the, the Iranian people can breathe freely. How do we export the spirit of 1776? First, we have to understand that democracy has roots in civil society. It has roots in culture, it has roots in education that it doesn't come, it doesn't always come easily or naturally to human beings. So I would proceed carefully. I would, I would urge Americans in our diplomatic ranks to do their best, to educate themselves in two areas, one in America's own principles because we don't understand them that well. But second, immerse themselves in the history and the culture and the language of Venezuela history, culture, languages of, of Iran de Democratic transitions can be extremely difficult. Secretary Rubio and others have pointed out that the challenges in Venezuela part of the West are different than the situa than the challenges in the Middle East. That's all true. We need to keep in mind that Iran does have a, a segment of its population that is well educated, that is secular, that leans toward toward the west. My, the basic charge though is be careful. Democratization is almost at the opposite end of the spectrum of the military operation that we saw the United States military execute so spectacularly. Just a day or two ago, president Trump has favored surgical military operations. The dropping of 30,000 pound bombs by B two bombers down air ventilation shoots to reach a 200 and to reach a nuclear installation buried 250 feet below him under a mountain in Iran or the, the o operation of just a few hours to extract Maduro without any American deaths and small damage to one of our aircraft. Surgical operations are terrific. Promoting democracy. Promoting freedom is not a surgical operation. It's the work of a long time. Our previous work has suggested we're not great at it, and so we should proceed cautiously.

- Okay, let's end on what hopefully is another optimistic note, Peter, and that is your experience teaching at Stanford Conservative varieties and conservatives in America. Our listeners know this is something that is very important at Hoover right now, our director, con Lisa Rice has made us very involved in the larger topic of civics. And so this ties into Stanford's civics education, institutional confidence. How's it going with the kids? Do they get it mean? I have bad images of you of holding up puppets and trying to explain things or, and Greta did these kids coming from a harsh background, but they probably haven't heard a lot of very nice things about conservatism.

- Yes. So five years ago, I guess as part of the new Stanford Civics initiative, Condi asked me to teach this course. It's co-listed in the political science department and with the Stanford Civics initiative

- Proving nobody says no to condo Lisa Rice.

- Well, that's true too. That's true too. That's, that's for sure. Thi this year will be my fifth year teaching the course. It's a seminar me, I've had about 20 students each year. It's while the students get credit within the Stanford Civics Initiative. It's not a mandatory course. That means there's considerable amount of self-selection that goes into the class. In, in each of the classes for the last four years, I've found that one portion of the class comes in with some sort of conservative background. Another third of the class comes in with, you know, great talent in stem science and technology and just curious because the, the title of the class stands out in the curriculum, varieties of Conservatism in America. First it's about conservatism, and second, it's search. There are varieties of it, but you know, many people at the Stanford campus think that there's only one kind of conservatism and it's bad. And the third group of students come from the left and they have an intellectual conscience and they recog and in response to the controversial character of conservatism on campus and in the country, they arrive at the cla in the class because they want to understand better what's so controversial in any class. In any case, I have been delighted to work with the students who have chosen to, to take the class. And I find them, I find them willing to be challenged. I actually find them delighted to be in a class in which they're challenged a class, which, for example, begins, as you already mentioned, bill, with reading Locke in the first week, right? Because Locke gives expression to the principles of freedom on which the country is based. And Marx in the second week, because Marx provides the most systematic and influential critique of that which American conservatives seek to conserve. That is political and economic. And I can see that the students are thrown a little off stride when they see that the class, the seminar on lock and the seminar on marks are taught in the same spirit. That is our first job, is to understand the arguments and only once we've understood the arguments to, to, to criticize them. Now, the students have no doubt that I am highly critical of Marx and better disposed toward, toward John Locke, but they also see that their job again in the first place, to understand the arguments. And I think they find this, the, the spirit in which that the, the class is taught. I think they do find it fun and liberating.

- Now you're trying to teach kids at a very elite American university to think critically Peter. But in terms of this in civics, should we be doing at the college level or do we need to go back into K 12 and younger to, to properly capture mines?

- Oh, well, the answer is most certainly yes and yes, we do need to do it in the college level because we've failed to do it to K through 12. So college education, to a significant extent must be remedial education that as we pursue the reform of America's educational institutions, it seems to me we must operate vigorously and simultaneously on multiple levels, reforming college education and very much also finding ways appropriate to age level and grade level to incorporate study of civics. I'm not even crazy about the word. I, I would, I would say the study of American ideas and institutions of American history for me, which certainly includes history of literature in America, the history of religion in America, the history of war in America, all all of this should be an essential part of the education

- Intellectual thought.

- You can call it that. Yes,

- My Professor Berkowitz, I'm gonna end the podcast with a reading assignment, not for you, but I want you to start reading for our listeners as we approach July the fourth. I could point our listeners to a lot of video products, some series on whimsical. You can watch the musical 1776 if you want to, you can watch the wonderful HBO series, John Adams, which will give you a bit of a background on what happened around 1776. But in terms of understanding both 1776 Peter, but the root causes of the Republic, give us two or three books you'd recommend that people should read.

- Let's start with a wonderful book written by my friend, Wilfred McClay. It's called Land of Hope is intended as a textbook. It could be given to college students and high school students as a textbook. I myself find it a wonderful read, a fun, wonderful refresher course on American history, beginning from with the 15th and 16th century adventurers who discovered the so-called New world right up to the dawn of the the 21st century. Maclay is a, is a terrific historian. He writes beautifully and in, in my view, he gives a fair and rich account of of American history. Other writings, I urge people to read the debates, the Lincoln Douglas debates, Abraham Lincoln's collection of his, his Greatest speeches. And I think I'll stop, stop for there now with the recommendations.

- That's plenty because I'm also including your wonderful book on Israel as required reading as well. So

- Peter, you're kind.

- That's it for the podcast. I hope to see out at Hoover this summer. Come, come back, spend time, beat the

- Community. I'll be there and I'll look for you.

- Okay, take care, my Fred.

- Thanks Bill.

- You've been listening to Matters of Policy and Politics, the podcast devoted to the discussion of policy research from the Hoover Institution, as well as issues of local, national and geopolitical concerns. If you've been to join this podcast, please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to our show. And if you wouldn't mind, spread the word, tell your friends about us. The Hoover Institution is Facebook, Instagram, and X feeds are X handles at Hoovers, that's H-O-O-V-E-R-I-N-S-T. I also recommend you sign up for the Hoover daily report, which keeps you updated on what Peter Berkowitz and is Hoover car up to. And that's delivered your inbox weekdays. Peter Berkowitz's book. Once again, I'm really plugging this for you, Peter.

- Thank you. Thank you.

- On explaining Israel, the Jewish state, the Middle East of America. You can also find what else Peter is up to by going to his website, which is peter berkowitz.com. B-E-R-K-O-W-I-T-Z is how you spelled his name for the Hoover Institution. This is Bill Whalen. We'll have podcasts coming up later this month on California and also the political climate in America heading into the midterm election. The second podcast is gonna feature Peter's friend David Brady, who has a book out on Artis and tons. So until next time, take care and thanks again for listening. Soah.

- This podcast is a production of the Hoover Institution, where we generate and promote ideas advancing freedom. For more information about our work, to hear more of our podcasts or view our video content, please visit hoover.org.