From Tiananmen to Hong Kong: Generations of Resistance with Rowena He

- Welcome to China Considered a podcast that brings fresh insight and informed discussion to one of the most consequential issues of our time, how China's changing and changing the world. I'm Liz Economy, Hargrove senior fellow and co-director of the program on the us, China, and the world at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. Today, I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Rowena He. She's my colleague here at the Hoover Institution and one of the world's leading scholars on human rights issues in China. She's also the author of the acclaimed 2014 book, Tiananmen Exiles, voices of the Struggle for Democracy in China, which was also named as one of the Asia Society's top five China books. Welcome, Ruen. It's great to have you with us.

- Thank you so much, Liz, for the opportunity to speak on China. Consider, I've been listening to this for so long, so finally, I'm glad to be part of this.

- Well, it's, it's really just a great pleasure for us to have you on. So let me start by taking you quite a number of years back to 1989 to the spring in Guandong, where you were still a high school student, but ended up participating in the sort of demonstrations, the political demonstrations that had spread across China. And you wrote at the time, or you've written, I shouldn't say at the time, but you've written since then that you took to the streets not because of hatred and despair be, but because of love and hope. Can you talk a little bit about what you meant and what you felt at that moment and what propelled you actually to go and demonstrate?

- Yeah, that's a great question, Lisa. I, I, I think that that sentiment was not just shared by myself. I think it was shared not only even in the, among the gentleman generation, but among many other peoples. Later I realized that we, you know, my, my generation is what people now call the Chaman generation. We were born during, towards the end of ma cultural revolution, and, and we grew up in Don's open and reform. So that was a time of searching, opening, and of course, we were told that that was, you know, we, we were going to have a different China opening up and, and things like that. So, and even those songs that we sang in the old times, like Glory belongs to the generation of the 1980s. So we were still materially deprived. I, I still remember, we barely have any, like, for example, as a young girl, I barely have any, when I was a kid, there was no those like stuffed animals that, things like that. And I, I really wanted to have those when I saw it from my neighbor's family and, and not like nice jazz and that kind of thing, but people's faces were full of hope. We, we sensed that we were, and later I, I organized a gentleman conference at Harvard, and many of the journalists at the conference when they started, they would say that we would not forget the spring of 1989 and via, or class of 1989. So I think that sentiment of idealism was widely shared. And even as a high school student, we felt that way.

- So when you went to the demonstrations, I mean, were you thinking about economic opportunity or were you thinking about political openness? I mean, again, sort of, I'm just trying to understand what motivated you at the moment.

- Yeah, we, we grew up with this revolutionary stories in our old time that we, we think that we could make a difference. We could contribute to the country. We, we could make China a better place. And the theme of sacrifice and idealism was throughout our education of those, you know, revolutionary movies and, and, and stories. And, and at the same time, China was opening up, right? So we, we learned these ideas about liberty and democracy. I think, of course now I can articulate very clearly, but at that time I, I don't think that it was very clear in my mind. And of course, as a scholar now, I, I could I know understand that even in the 1980s there was all these tensions between the left and the right and also this crack down your spiritual, anti spiritual pollution, anti spiritual liberalization. So all these campaigns going on as well. So it's not like a, a clear cut, right? Opening up. And, and, and for those of us who grew up in the 1980s, we, we knew nothing about the democracy war, 1979, right? The sentence of the dissident. And likewise, after Ian and many of the younger generation, they knew nothing about the struggles of my generation. So that generational discontinuity was very obvious. But at that time, when I took to the street, I, I, I felt a sense of hope, right? We, we were still using that long lived thing in China. In China, right? Long lived, because the full is long lived Chairman Mao, and long sudden we were shouting long lived lip democracy, long lived freedom, right? So, so that, that was the, the kind of sentiments we felt in 1989 when I got to Hong Kong. Later I met many of the, my colleagues of my generation in Hong Kong, and I was surprised to, to find out that they felt exactly the same, that they felt China was helpful. And even when I was teaching at Harvard, my mentors like Professor Robert Fargo, they were, I think they were all sharing with me in 1989. They really thought, this is the, this is the turning point. So it's multi-generational.

- Yeah. So obviously there was the, the crackdown in 1989, and then you were in college in the early 1990s. So what was your thinking then around, you know, what had transpired in 1989 and how did that shape, you know, what you eventually ended up doing? So did like, again, sort of what was, when did you realize that the Tiananmen experience, or you weren't in Tiananmen, but in Guandong nonetheless, the whole sort of set of demonstrations, when did you realize that this experience would ultimately come to define your life's work? I,

- That's, that's another great question. I, I often think about that and people even ask me if I regret it for doing this, because now that with all the personal and professional prices that I'm, I'm paying for studying the topic. I think even as early as 1989 that the day after the massacre, I went back to my high school. I was wearing a black arm, bang, the Chinese way of mourning. And I, I, my, my teacher came over and, and told me that I have to remove that, otherwise, no one can put protect me from now on. No one can protect from now on. And I, I think that was a moment it stick in my mind. And al I also thought about my father's and his friends. When Ma died, he closed all the doors and windows and they were drinking wine. They seemed so happy. And the next morning when they took me to the puppet memorial, they were so sad and everybody was crying. And as a little girl, I was confused by the adult contrasting facial expression. And then that moment actually reminding me, so we were so sad in private after the massacre, but outside it was celebration of a crackdown of a counter-revolution, right? It was a celebration. So, and I, I removed the black arm bank and I, I I, I think that for two generations we were not allowed to express the basic human feelings of sorrow and joy. I I think that was very profound in retrospect in many years later, of course, very soon, I, I shut up, right? So I, I stopped talking about it because I didn't want to go to jail. I didn't want to be expelled from school. I still want to be a go to college. So I think like many of my generation in 1989, and of course my father's generation too, we learned to lie in order to survive. So that was on the back of my mind. And when I was in college starting, I, I should say that organizations like Lot Voice of America, I remember the first anniversary of Ian Leman, I was in my dorm, or the girls, you know, not everyone knew about Ian men, not everyone knew what what had happened. And, but a few of us, we were holding the tiny little radio in our hands with, even with all the interference of the signal, we were listening to VOA and Voice of America. And then we realize, oh my God, like the word is still remembering. Because we kept wonder like, do people know what happened to us? Are they, are they still carrying on? Are we being dropped? Right? So those are the questions when you were in darkness, you wanted to know, and, and, and those were the only like light we saw in darkness that kept me going and make me realize that we were not alone. And of course, after college to this jump fast, fast forward, right? So after, when, you know, after 1992, you know, sudden tour and, and it's all about you, you keep your mouth shut, you, you make money any way you like, you'll be successful. So I was very successful in the banking and financial industry for few years. I, I started to make a lot of money and I, I started to live a much better life than my intellectual parents. But I think on the back of my mind that, that that backless in 1989 on the day of the massacre, when when overnight, right? You, you, you, you saw your peers being slapped, it, the blood crack down. It, it was not something you can easily get rid of. So then I, I, I tried to leave and I didn't know what, how to, but when Canada has this immigration policy, and then I apply, and then I, I basically carry two suitcases as a new immigrant to Canada with nothing but hope. And that's how I, I, I studied my, my first, you know, few years of immigration life, and I later, I tried to apply for graduate school and, and, and I think that, okay, MBA, right? I could make a lot of money. And that's what everybody was telling me. And it was tempting, right? As a new immigrant, I worked so many jobs. I can't even remember day jobs, night jobs, seven days a week. But, but, but I think that that idea that I want to speak out and, and, and tell and, and to, to, to get justice, it's very, it's very raw inside me, not now I can articulate. So that's why I, I applied for graduate school and then I started my master and PhD. I, I focus on chinamen.

- So I'm just curious, when you were a banker in, in China, did you have a circle of friends of, of, you know, probably friends, not merely acquaintances or people in your family that still discussed Chien? I mean, you mentioned, you know, sort of holding onto the radio when you were in college, but, you know, was, did you just talk, just shut down about what had happened? Or was there still an ongoing quiet conversation among the people that you trusted?

- Yes, always. I think on the surface, like Tianmen seemed to be so remote, especially during the writing China period, right? You witness all of this too, in, in all your publications list. You talk about it eloquently. But I, I think that at that time, we, we still, every anniversary, for example, I would be hiding in some of my friends, pray some of them from Beijing, some of them from other provinces, and then they would pull out the things they hide, they hit under their bed, right? That's something from the square. And they will share stories. And, and we, we never lost, we were lighting candles secretly of, and, and that's also why the candlelights in Victoria, part in China, in Hong Kong were so important to us because no matter what the government told us, we tell what they said. We knew that in Hong Kong, there were hundreds and thousands of people that filled up the six of soccer film every year, every single year, men and women, kids and older people, whoever they are, they would just be there on time. That was a, a, a commitment for truth and justice for the victims. So we, we like candles all the time, secretly every year. And there were discussions and, and about, of course, there was a, a, a, a time of despair. So later I became very critical of Chinese intellectuals of the silence for a long time. And thinking that why did people do more? Why, why can't we just speak? How, why can't we just do more? But, but of course, later we can talk, we can share about my experience in Hong Kong, I IAnd. Right? Or maybe

- You began to appreciate why they didn't, right? Yes. But, but let's, but let's go to Hong Kong because in 2019, you know, right when the pro-democracy protests were occurring, you took a job teaching at the Chinese University of, of Hong Kong. And I'm, I'm curious, a why did you decide to take that position, right? Leave the sort of safety and the ease of Canada and the United States and move to Hong Kong, and what were your students like, right? And did they see parallels between 2019 and what they were doing in 1989? So did they draw that connection, or did you help them draw that connection?

- Hmm. Yeah. So I, I love the questions. So, and I, I, I actually was offered the position in 2018 because when I was in Hong Kong, I was questioned by some of the pro Beijing people that, because later they even crucify me in the one way, a newspaper saying that I was sent by the American government to poison the minds of the Hong Kong students during the, the, the regions and unprecedented social movement. And I, I actually got the offer 2018, but I was accepted as a fellow at IAS Institute for French Studies at Princeton. So I, I decided that I would finish the fellowship, and I know that people, I wanted to be like, what people thought about me as being courageous and go to Hong Kong and decided to go to Hong Kong. But that was not a, a clear position. I was actually terrified. So I, I can, I can tell you why I went to Hong Kong. It was more personal. My, I, I grew up with my grandmother. When my parents were sent away during the cultural revolution, they were in the mountains. And so I was very close with my grandmother and all those, I, when I started it. And I think the most difficult thing was not about, you know, rising China, no funding opportunities, no conference opportunities, and people try to stay away from you sometimes because they didn't want to get into trouble and they didn't want, need the money from the Chinese students. So all those are familiar with, but for me, the most difficult thing has always been that Vietnam, I could not be able to, I I did, I couldn't just like other people go home and go home. Ah, so I missed my grandmother so badly. And before six or five, seven years before she died, I got a chance to see her when I went for conference in Hong Kong. And she has been in her sick bath and, and, and I, the, the final time I talked to her, that was six years before she died, I, I make her promise me to leave on and continue and wait for me to go home and come back. And I said, I would come back to see you. I, I touch her at the time. I, I said that I would come back and, and, and she was in her sick bag. She was very sick for six, almost seven years. And, and everyone was saying, I, we don't understand why you were mother, hold on. Like it make, they didn't put any, any machine on her, but she just whole un un until she passed away on that year 20 s, 16 or 17, I couldn't remember then that was the year that I, I, I, I, but before Thanksgiving, and that was the only time if you asked me that, I regretted for doing Ian. I I wanted to be closer to home. And I was even thinking that if I'm too far away from home, she would never be able to find me again in the middle of nowhere in the United States. So then I applied for the position in Hong Kong on the Chinese Christmas Eve, and I was so homesick. So that was my long story, my, my personal reason to decide to go back to Hong Kong. It just so happened 2019, and of course before I went, I signed a power attorney before I got on the plane at, at Princeton new airport, and I sent it to Jerry Cohen, and I saw jury as my lawyer if anything happened, if I got disappear, if they said I committed suicide, that's what happened to all the human rights lawyers, as you know. And if I do a, a TV confession saying that, you know, everything I did was a lie, all of those, then that's not true. And I said, I would like to have help from jury to get legal help. So signing that thing, and then I sent it out, and then I went to the airport with my suitcases, and that was my, my pre Hong Kong. And of course, the moment I arrived, it was the unprecedented social movement on the ground. And the first day I arrived, the first week I arrived, my students knocked at my door and they said, professor Hu, we have a, a gathering on campus talking about what historians history person, that's how they come before the Hong Kong history majors. Would you join us? I, I, I hesitated for a minute, Liz, because, you know, I, I wasn't sure what's gonna happen, and I, I, I just feel that I'm both an insider and outsider. But, but immediately my 1989 row itself came up and feel that I need to support this young people for the same ideal that we had in 1989. So, so we started, we, we started the, the long journey in the, in the, the three years. So we, you know, we, they very often, they came to my apartment, right? They were, we, we eat together. They were sitting on my apartment floor until 3:00 AM 4:00 AM in the morning. And if they go for protest in the early days, I, I set up a WhatsApp because when I got to Hong Kong, I didn't have any social media. And my students said, if you call us and text us, we, we, no one would call you back. We use WhatsApp. And, and, and later they use signal. So I, I make sure everyone got home before I, I went to bed. So that was, that was the, the, the kind of connection that we built. And to answer your question about comparison of 19 89, 20 19, we did not just compare 1989, we went beyond, right? We, we studied A PRC history, we looked at the Yana ratification campaign, we look at the anti-racist campaign, we look at the cultural revolution, and I said that this is exactly the same regime that you are doing life right now, right now. So I think that actually that kind of interactions and, and, and the, the, the sharings and, and communications was crucial when the students were making decisions, especially during the campus, standoff happened to place in my campus when the police was outside and whether they should leave or not. And they, they told me, actually, I remember they told me, marina, don't come back. We are determined. We are ready to die. And then I said, you're not ready. You are not going to die. So I carry my, my, my harry backpack with like a meatball, instant noodles and waters. And at that time, all this, all the rows were already been banned. And I, I walked the highway actually because there was no more car allowed. And I walked all the highway, I walked back and they were crying, and I was crying after hours of walking when I finally get together with the students and, and they said, we are ready to die. We are going to sacrifice like the students in 1989. And I said that I, I I, I gave my life for justice for the tam mothers, and I still cannot get it. What do you want me to tell your dad and your mom tomorrow if any of you die? And, and we started to cry together. But, but I still think about those moments that we study in classrooms, and we talk about the anti-racist campaign, people really to survive. And we are going to all live together and we are going to do more than just die today. So, so there were many of those stories. Lisa, I can go on and on.

- So, Rina, I'm, I'm curious, as, as you were speaking, I was thinking to myself, like, how did you think it would all turn out? I mean, you'd had the experience of 1989. You were clearly both inspired by your students, but also concerned, very concerned for their welfare. Did you see a potential positive outcome from these protests different from what happened in 1989? Or did you always have a sort of shadow of foreboding, you know, over, over your head?

- Yeah, I talked to my students about this in the first class. I, I, I taught in Hong Kong. So that was a class boycott week, and they were not supposed to come to class.

- Wait, that was your first week? Yes. The class boycott? Yes, yes,

- Yes. That's my first class in Hong Kong. And I talk about what you asked me in that class, and of course, I, I I, I try not to be imposing. So first of all, I joined it event on, on my campus, and then I told my students, I fully understand what you've been through and how you're feeling. Now. I support, I understand that you want to have a class boycott class week, and I hope that you boycott class, but not boycott learning. I still think that it's important that you come to our class so that you know what you're dealing with. And to my surprise, not only my student came, many of the alumni came, we didn't have enough seats and chairs in my classroom. They have to go to another classroom to grab the chairs. That was the class boycott week. And, and I started to share with them my experience. And I, I think all my students can testify. I said that if things continue very soon, we would not be able to do what we are doing now. We would lose our space and, and the crackdown would come in, and they have every reason to come in and to destroy Hong Kong. And that's what I said. So yes, the answer is, I I, I anticipated this from day one. I, I think in 1989, if you want to make a comparison, the students like us, we were very naive. We thought we were children of the CCP, and they're not going to crackdown. Even though we knew about the, the, the 1976 when joined, I die and the crackdown and, and the sue like April 5th crackdown in Tiananmen Square. But we, we still did not anticipate any of those, like June 4th, right? A hundred thousand Army soldiers. It with 80 47 and tanks firing on, on announced surveillance. Right? So, so, so, but in 19 and in 2019, I, I think that that was the same thing, right? So we were naive, and then the student in Hong Kong, they never had any, any illusion of the CCP. However, they were also naive in their own way, meaning they have the strategy about destroying Hong Kong. They think that, okay, Hong Kong is so important as economic, as center, right? So if we destroy Hong Kong, it, Hong Kong destroyed the CCP would be very upset. They they would, they would. That's what they care. So that's the capitalist kids in Hong Kong. That's their upbringing. That's what they thought is important. But, but I think by the end of the day, the C CCP only care about one thing that's maintaining power and keeping their power. It really doesn't matter whether you are loyal kids or, or you, you, you, you have a, a economic center. So,

- Right. I, I, I think that's a really important point. I, I think it was a mistake. I, I believe that the US government also made somehow when, you know, they passed the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act in Congress, which, you know, was well intentioned, right? Basically saying that if the, you know, CCP cracked down in Hong Kong, that Hong Kong would lose its special economic status. I think that's just a fundamental misunderstanding as you suggest of what the priority really is for the Chinese Communist Party. It's not to have Hong Kong, you know, serve as an economic model of the Hong Kong stock exchange or anything like that. It's about political control, right? And ensuring that Hong Kong is politically aligned with the interests of the mainland. Yes,

- It was very difficult to be on the ground when you are, you, you are a human being when you are a teacher, when you're a historian, and when history's in motion, and then you watch everything, you know, going through, you want to show your support and understanding to the, to the younger generation of course. And not trying to just tell them that, oh, what you're doing is useless. Right? So, but it's also very, and I also try to tell my students, I said, no matter what the bottom line is, even after the imposing of the national security law, I said, I would not censor myself in my classroom. There was a reporting system already, and there was all of those. So I still try to calculate that kind of community engagement and, and, and trust that actually we, we continue up to today, and I was attacked. I was being criticized. And at one point, you, you saw this not only, you know, in many other countries now, nowadays, right? The deeply divided the society. So the, the, the radical on both sides, people brutalize and radicalize each other, and there was no more conversation. So I insisted that if you come to my classroom, like from Taiwan, from Hong Kong, from mainland, from anywhere, let's sit down and talk. And if you cannot talk, come to my house, come to my apartment, let's sit and talk and rebuild that kind of communities through many of the activities. We went to the Tianmen Museum and, and we, we just chat in the evenings, and sometimes I even, I just, we have the, we call it the girls nights, right? So we only if the girls, we, we sit on the floor and talking about, and then the maintenance students started to share that when they share what they learn in my class with their boyfriend in, in China, and then they say, oh, you should drop her class, you know, she's trying to brainwash you and that kind of thing. And so, so that was beyond just a teaching inside the classroom. So it is, we lived through the history, right? When there's, for example, when the statue of the goddess of Democracy, that was a copy right? In, in, at entrance of my university. So in 1989, I watch on tv, right? How the tank came in and, and crashed that in Tiananmen Square, right? So that's my generation's longing for, for we want to have something. The United States have this, the Statue of Liberty. And then we had, we have this statue of the goddess of democracy, and they crash it once when I was 17 years old. And then when I was in middle aged woman in, at my own campus in front of my eyes, they took it away. 2021. So, so, so when that happened, when, when he, you, you, I'm supposed to be a historian, I'm supposed to document history, and, and when you watch his history being erased in front of your face when you watched your students were so scared. And then I have to eventually, before I left, I I, I, I strapped and burned all their final papers before I left. And, and so many students came as a team to help me to destroy the papers. It it's very painful to go through all of this, but, but that give me, even, make me even more determined to keep the history and the memory alive.

- Yeah. So in 2023, Hong Kong authorities denied you, your visa renewal and the Chinese University of Hong Kong terminated your contract. Did this come as a surprise to you, or were you fully expecting it? I mean, to be completely frank, I am surprised that the Chinese University of Hong Kong lets you in in 2019 to begin with at some level, right? But, but were you surprised at this moment, or did you, did you know that this was coming?

- I even in 2019, you were not the only person who was surprised. Right? I was surprised myself because I remember going to campers to give that talk, and I was wondering, should I pretend to be someone else when I, my, all my work was out there. So I remember I was talking to all my mentors at that time, and they said, maybe you should just give a, you know, a talk not about your work. And, and I said that, like, how can you, how is it going to work? But yes, 2023. So I, I knew that was coming because before I left Hong Kong for the National Humanities Center Fellowship, I was not given a renew visa to go back. And I actually was told that I could not leave Hong Kong. That was when I was terrified. Wow. 2022. Yeah. At least I can openly talk about so many of these things now. But for many years I was so scared, you know, that I, I checked just like everyone else, right? So I try not to talk about, especially this kind of personal thing. So I was told that I could not leave Hong Kong

- Yeah.

- Without a new visa. So that was the most terrifying thing. And my students were terrified, and they were asking for information about what I teach. I need to submit materials. And I remember I was asked, there's a template of many pagers, template and asking questions, I think from my cv, for example, I think they asked what was Harvard University who funded Harvard University. So they, they got all these things from my cv, what was IAS Princeton, right? Who unfunded IAS Princeton. So, so it was, and yeah, so it was a very strange thing, right? So they basically ask you, so I just, my students helped me to print out Harvard University, you know, what's Harvard University? So we put it in a PDF file. And, and then, and then we submitted all those things, and there were questions that I wasn't sure. So at that time, I was asking help from my friends in NGOs in the United States. And I also start, you know, in, I'm not sure if you know that in studying 2019, most of us who, who felt that we would get into trouble, especially when my colleagues were being arrested and things like that, we all have a lawyer. So I had a lawyer in Hong Kong, and I, I-I-I-I-I, I asked about how to write a wheel, for example, if I disappear, what to do and things like that. And so also my, you know, mentors and friends, and especially after the two micros of the Canadian micros were being taken away, and everyone was telling me, you, you, it's time to come back, Rowina. And I don't understand why least, but at that time, I really feel that I'm, I'm just like, my students refuse to leave the campus. During the campus standoff. I was so determined to stay in Hong Kong. I felt that I could not leave my, my, my students and my campus now. So it is, is, is now in retrospect, I didn't know why I felt that way, but that's how I felt at the time. I didn't want to leave. So I had the lawyers, I signed the lawyers, and, and I, I don't think I should name him the, the person because his no, no profile person as well. So, but, but eventually we decided that this is a good thing to do because that would be the a privilege thing. So whatever would be discussed would not have to be revealed later. So, so I, I, I, I wasn't sure if I could leave until I was told that I would be, if I was allowed to leave, I would be given a lter. And without the lter, I would not be allowed to leave. So I was actually taken to a back room at the airport at the time, and all my students and my colleagues were waiting outside, and I was just terrified in the room, but I still had my phone. And they were testing on signal, everybody ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And, and I turned it off. And they, they, they were all saying to Arina, we would not leave the airport until your body, your flight. So just minutes before my, my flight took off, I was sent away. And I remember, I knew that I could not, if I run, I would not be able to make it to the gate. So there was those airport cart they were driving by and they said, if I pay how much Hong Kong dollars, they would take me to the gate. That good thing about ki I just,

- I don't think I've ever heard of that, but that's

- Good. Yeah. Yeah. I jumped me in and I, I said like, I just gave the money and I got to the gate and, and, and I, I think actually those people who question me in the room, I think they were very nice because they called the gate to tell them that I was coming. So they knew they, they should wait for me. So I got to the gate, and then they, they just got me into the, I I bought it, the plane. And then before I sat down, the gate just closed behind my back. And I remember that. And then the students, my student, I, I tested, I said, I, I just bought it. And they said, hooray and gray and blah, blah. And then my colleague said, Rowena, let's make a movie, a Hong Kong version of rush hours.

- You, you know, I was just thinking that this sounds like a movie, actually. I'm, I'm sitting in, in suspense, you know, I don't think I would've felt safe until the plane actually took off, though. I, I, you know, even getting on the plane and sitting down, I feel like I'm living, you know, through this with you right now. I think until it was wheels up, I, I still would've been concerned that somebody would come and, and haul me off the plane.

- Yeah, it, it's easy to talk about it now, but at the time it was, I was terrified. I I, people sometimes call me courageous or terror for doing Tian men and any of this. I, I, I, as my students, though, I was a very Timmy person, right? When the, you know, even at the Harvard time when the nationalist kids, they, they, they send me hey emails, they, they said they're going to gang rape me and all of those. I was just so scared to death. And I, I, I, I, I, I, I just, I was just terrified and, and order time. But, but if there's anything that kept me going that was, that's is exactly because of that fear. That fear that these future generations have to go through what I have been through. If there's anything that's out of the courage is my fear.

- But that is perhaps the greatest definition of courage, right? Is to be able to stick to your beliefs and to act on them, even, you know, in the face of, you know, such threats and, and, and deep fear within yourself. I mean, to me, that's, that's the biggest sign of, of courage. And to that, I mean, you have been designated among the top 100 Chinese public intellectuals, you've testified, you know, before Congress, you know, certainly in China circles and even beyond, you are, you know, very well known for the work that you've done. Do you feel today as though this visibility gives you a greater sense of protection? Or do you think it makes you more vulnerable?

- I it's a long process, right? I, I first came as a new immigrant, then as a grad student, then as a postdoc, then as the lecture at the bottom of the letter in, in, in, in some academics settings. I, I've been through all of this fear, just why often when I gave talks, I saw the organizers asked me to tell the, the students or the, even the scholars on campus when they came to the conference, I organized on gentleman, tell them, don't be scared. 'cause they always used the newspapers to cover up their hat, right? So they, they would just cover up and, and wear mask and all. And then I, I said that, but I'm scared myself. How can I tell people not to be scared? The fear is so, so, so, so just, you know, just real, right? So even the most recent public panola ritual that I attended at Berkeley last month, after the Hong Kong fire, and, and, and, and it was organized by students from Hong Kong at Berkeley and Stanford. So they were, you know, passing around mask and, and there's only one student from Hong Kong. He, he went up to speak and he was covering up from, from bottom to top. So he was not even attending a Tian in vigil. It was just have a vigil for the fire. And they were so terrified. So that's why when I was asked to go up and speak, I felt that it's my turn. The Hong Kong people have been lighting candles for us for 30 years in Victoria Park. And it's my turn now to, to go up and speak for the Hong Kong people. And, and, and, and, and, and of course now the second pair of shoe has dropped talking about that. I, I I'm thinking about like the Hong Kong Democracy Alliance will be trial this month, January 22nd. Yeah. So my friend, like Albert Hall le and, and so they are going to be trial for organizing the candlelight ritual. So, so they were, they were, they were, they were accused, right, for collaborating with this anti-China foreign forces as if they would, they sell the country and China. But, but this is the second type of loyalty, right? If that, that's what I talk about, the betrayal of loyalty in the 1980s bin, the, the, the exile journalist, right? He, he had a very well-known article about the second kind of loyalty. So he asked a question, will a loyal citizen be allowed to criticize his government when, when the government is, is not doing its job? So that's the second type of loyalty. So, so I think these people in Hong Kong, they have been lighting the candles for us when we were so scared. And the month I, before I left, 'cause I left the summer, so no, that's the last summer of Miami Hong Kong. I went to the court trial of the Hong Kong Deese Lion. And I remember, I, I, I got up very early in the morning, and then I went in, and then they, I, I watched my friends walk out. They, they used to be quite, you know, fatted and strong. And, and they, they all seem to have lost a lot of weight, all in gray hair. And, and I was on the sign of the, the freedom. And they were, they're now being, they're, they're supposed to be criminals. Being, being a child. And, and that switch of position of the fear and, and, and, and now it, it is, it's just, it, it's, I don't, I don't even have a word. So, so that's why I hope the international community would not drop this, people who have been carrying on the work to, to do this. And, and now when, to answer your question, the roundabout way, I have been through a long way. I don't think that being well known and and being no would give you additional protection. But, but it doesn't mean that international support is not important. I think it's extremely important. But from my own personal perspective, I have been through a lot of trying not to be seen, even in Hong Kong, especially in Hong Kong when I was an adult, right? You own, you need to cultivate your space. You need to protect your classroom. You need to protect your, your, your, your students who are, who are like your children, then that, that's, that's the, your responsibility to be invisible so that you, you can continue your work. And in that sense, I think we should not lose hope and we should not be despair about China's future, because the hope in China actually are those that you cannot see is invisible. But one day, when the chance come, when the opportunity come, just now in 1989, the 1980s, everyone said the kids when not only in just a marginal in dancing in topo, but, but, but eventually all of a sudden, overnight it started again.

- Yeah. So that, so I wanna follow up on this point, you know, about the youth in China today, you know, they, they don't show signs of many signs of political activism aside from, you know, maybe during COVID, but we certainly don't see publicly anyway, the types of, you know, protests, the environment, for example, that we saw, you know, throughout the, you know, two thousands, up until 2011, where a lot of the youth, you know, were mobilized around various social issues and were out in the streets demonstrating not even just for, you know, human rights per se, but around a whole array of, you know, broader social concerns that they had. And sometimes I think, of course, they were linked also to, to issues around human rights. But we don't see that kind of movement. I think the re repressive apparatus in China is so much stronger today than it, than it was then. But, but you're saying it, it's invisible today. And, and certainly they face challenges, you know, youth unemployment anywhere between, you know, 18 to 23% is, you know, generally reported. You had the life flat movement, which is, you know, basically saying we're taking ourselves out of, you know, the economic competition out of, you know, this current system in, in some respects. But what do you see? Like, what would you look for? What would be the signs in your mind that there were ideas and sort of there was some sort of mobilization taking place beneath the surface? Or will we not see it? Will it just be one day it's going to, you know, burst forth?

- Yeah, because everything now, you cannot just go to social media. You cannot shove slogans on the street. So it's hard to see what, what's happening, right? So that's also my, the what my, my, the book, the manuscript I'm working on is about, so I saw the white paper movement right after COVID, when, when, when the opening up, that was a turning point. That was the reconciliation of many generations, I think. 'cause I've been through the immediate post 89 and, and you know, the CCP revised or the history textbooks, the page or the education, very elaborate. So at some point they produce a generation that cannot distinguish between the regime and the nation, right? And they perceived anyone who is critical of the regime as national traitors. And that's where the attacks against anyone like me who are critical of the regime was coming from. So, so that's when I started the nationalism project when I, when I was at Harvard and then at Princeton. But when, after Hong Kong, after COVID in the post COVID period, I, I saw this huge change among the younger generation because all of a sudden they experience themselves in their real life. What the government has been lying, there's a white paper about COVID, right? Published by the CCP and that, that's right before the white paper movement. So this younger generation, they saw, geez, this is not what we have been through, and what else have they been lying us? Right? I used the political socialization framework for all my work about the youth values and things like that. So, so you, you were socialized, political, socialized to believe in certain values and perspective until you've, you have this whatever incident that this socialize and resocialize you, and then you started to ask questions. It it's always associated with loss, psychological pain, of course. But, but then that's how I saw many of the students. At one point, after the passing, immediately after the passing of the national security law, I gave a talk on Zoom in Mandarin to a few hundred of Chinese students organized by maintenance students. I almost decided not to do it because that was right after the passing of the national School war. As I mentioned just now, I, I I I, I actually wanted to withdraw, actually, I, I, I agree. And then I said that maybe I shouldn't do it. This is too terrifying. I don't even know who would be on that. So for sure, I I, I felt like, okay. And that was the only time I spoke in Mandarin about Tiananmen to the, this large group of Chinese students. And, and after that they, they genuinely asked a lot of questions during q and a. And, and later they, they share with me how they felt. And they said that Professor Hu priest remember us. Like I was from, you know, I don't know how to translate like, you know, small cities, RC and science.

- So very small cities, right? Second, third cities. Yeah. So were they, were they, I mean, how did they find out about your talk? How did this even That's the fact. Yeah, they have

- Their own way of, they have the civil society, they have their, their their own way of connecting the social media. And they just find now, and of course I know they dissolved afterward, so I didn't even know who the people invited me. It's like a, it was so underground. So they, everything they were, so, they just, we get, we kind of signal group and they were connected to me by some other professors in Hong Kong. And after that, the, the group just dissolved the next morning. I don't know where they are, who they are, but, but, but that's what I meant. So you have all the students again and again, they, they were curious. They were intellectually, they wanted to find out. And they, I think many of them even will remember us, like professor who remember us in the future, if you feel discouraged, you feel that the Chinese youth are not there. And remember us, there were, there were many of, we cannot speak out, but we are here, we are here with you together. So I think it was those that kind of incidents that I saw cross generation, not just one generation that keep me going and not just in one place in, in everywhere. And not just Chinese, but also Chinese people in diaspora, Hong Kong, people in diaspora. And now the many of the younger generation who are now in the uk, in Canada. And, and in Canada they have the, the, the, what's that called? The light bulb project. So the, the younger generation could come over. So it is not, it feels like they always that end game, right? Where student like to say, game over end game. And, and I said that the game would not end until we gave out.

- So I almost want to end end our discussion on that note. But, but let me just ask you, you know, what, what about the role of the international community and, and putting aside even the sort of the Chinese diaspora, what role, you know, should the US government, for example, play, if any or other governments, what, what can they do to continue to support, you know, people in Hong Kong, for example, or, you know, should, does, does pressure on human rights still make sense? Right? There's no more human rights dialogue, certainly between the United States and China. I think Germany still has one. I don't know that it has any actual impact, but what, what would be, if you had a recommendation, for example, for the president of the United States, let's say for President Trump about what the US could or should be doing, what, what might you say?

- I think we should always include human rights as an important item on the agenda of US China relationship. And not just for, not just for like moral reasons. Moral reasons is important. And I always believe that the, the competition between us and China should not be one of money and power military on only. I think it's more important what makes the United States strong and powerful and great. That's our values, right? That's, that's, that should be a relationship between democracy and dictatorship. Not not just other things. And, and we, we should not lose sight of those. And even for a more practical reason, pragmatic reason, I think in, i, I fully understand now with what's happening there were all many other priorities. It's hard to be a politician these days to to be what in whatever position. But I, I hope that people would not forget that human rights is not just about China. It's not just about Dan Tiananmen or anything else. If you look at COVID, right? The, the violation of human rights of Dr. Li w in Wuhan, right? He tried to speak out and warn us, became the violation of human rights of every single human being on earth. So we are on the same plane. So if the plane got hijacked in this global village, we would end up in the same place. You got a business class, I got a window seat, we end up in the same place. So don't, don't, don't, don't think that it's just about them, but it's also about us. I think international support is very important. I remember when Newberg got the Nobel Peace Prize Lau when he was recognized, or at that time I was at Harvard, I was, I went with my, my some other Chinese students. We were jumping into Harvard year, like kindergarten kids. We were jumping like, oh, you shall book at the Yes, yes. And all my friends were sending me messages from China and said that I'm so happy I haven't been so happy since that day, since that year, since that night. We don't have to say anything, everyone understand they meant 1989, June 4th. And, and so that kind of international recognition and, and for, for scholars like me, I, I, I mean that when I was so out, I lost my job. I lost my career at the middle age person. I'm still digesting all this personal and, and professional consequence. I was not even allowed to return to get my personal belongings, right? So, so, but but then intellectual, like there was institutions, right? And, and, and, and, and scholars and, and, and people like you, you give me a voice, you support me. You understand my struggle and all of this are very precious. So I, I grew up in a country that the government wouldn't do anything to help us. So I would not just count on the powerful people to do something for us. I think every single human being on earth can do something, can contribute something in your own place, in your own way, not necessarily loud and visible and, and confrontational, but pay attention and speak out and, and support when you can. And I think that would, that would help. And, and that would give us also light. Like I, I know many of the Chi Beijing council and embassies in, in Beijing, in Hong Kong, every June 4th they light the candles, sisters more gesture. They posted the picture and, and it would be very helpful for people struggling for, for light in darkness. And, and that gave us a lot of hope. So I think together in solidarity, we can do something to make a difference. It may not happen overnight, right? I I think you watched the fall bird burning wolf example before it happened. People would kept saying that it's impossible, but, but, but the day after, everybody would be telling you that change is inevitable. What's happening isn't, yes. So IIII, we have been losing so many battles. I I mean I 30 years think about it, that's the, the best part of my life. I, I'm no longer a young woman, but, but, but in the long run of history, it's just an instant. We may lose many battles, but I just have to believe as historian that we are going to win that war and history is on our side. China has to save his past in order to have a future

- That's just, you know, beautifully, beautifully said, Rowina. So for listeners who want to know more about China's history, China's history with human rights, obviously there's, you know, your wonderful book, which I mentioned at the outset, but what else would you recommend that, that people read to learn more?

- Maybe the word according to China?

- Ah, you're so funny. Let's know. Don't do that. Seriously. What, what would you commend? I

- I think it's, it's hard to name one book, but I think, I hope it's important that we try to understand China in context and with context. So, so, so not just in some abstract theories and try to understand what's happening, the PRC history and human lives. And it's not just numbers and figures and tables and AI answers, right? So it, there are so many human, human beings. And, and at Hoover, we, we have the archive, for example, that I went to all the time. This is a, a young woman executed at the age of 35, right? If you look at her writings and, and, and the details. So, so then, then you would understand, for example, like in, I think at, at that time when ERs know write about, what's that called, that book at the other side of the river. So, so, so, so then you would not have that kind of illusions. Can you imagine a young woman in solidarity confinement and then execute it and, and and, and then to be described as like, I guess s book. So I think sometimes when we were facing difficulties in, in our own situation, we would turn to the other for alternative. And we don't look at the actual reality and think, okay, that's the, that's the, that's the, the, the, the other way to, to, to run the country and idealize the situation. So it's important to look at the reality and, and I think the suppressed historical past of China is speaking to our future.

- Okay. Rowena, I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to share your sort of personal history and all of your insights. As you know, one of the absolute top thought leaders on China and on Chinese human rights. It's really been, I think, you know, you are, first of all, you are not even middle aged by the way I am. It's 'cause you referenced that so many times. I feel compelled to say you do not qualify as middle aged. You are still young with a, a very, you know, long period ahead of you, I think to continue to do your, you know, important writings and, and to exercise the kind of leadership that you have in the past. And I know you will continue to do in the future and inspire, you know, many generations yet to come, both in China and outside China. So thank you again really for your, for all of your leadership and everything that you've done.

- And thank you Elise, for, for helping to keep people informed and to, to understand China and to giving us a voice, especially when we were silenced in our home country.

- Yeah. So if you enjoyed this podcast and want more informed discussion and debate on China, please subscribe to China considered via the Hoover YouTube channel or platform of your choice.