Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Prey: A Panel Discussion On Europe, Islam, And Women’s Rights

interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Christopher Caldwell, Valerie M. Hudson
Thursday, July 1, 2021

To watch the video, click here.


Peter Robinson: In recent years, Europe has experienced an enormous influx of immigrants. Most have been Muslim and male. Ayaan Hirsi Ali describes the effect on European women in her new book, and the title conveys her argument, "Prey." To discuss the book Ayaan Hirsi Ali and two of her friends, the journalist, Christopher Caldwell, and the scholar, Valerie Hudson. Uncommon Knowledge now. Welcome to Uncommon Knowledge, I'm Peter Robinson. Ayaan Hirsi Ali grew up in Africa and the Middle East. She sought asylum in the Netherlands becoming a citizen and serving in the Dutch parliament before moving to the United States. Ayaan Hirsi Ali became an American citizen in 2013. She is now a fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford. Her new book, once again, "Prey: "Immigration, Islam, and the Erosion of Women's Rights." A fellow of the Claremont Institute, Christopher Caldwell, publishes in a number of publications, including the New York Times. His books include "Reflections on the Revolution in Europe" published in 2009 and "The Age of Entitlement: America Since the Sixties" published just last year. A professor of political science at the Bush School at Texas A&M, Valerie Hudson, writes often on foreign policy and women's rights. Her best known work may be the 2004 book, "Bare Branches," in which she examined the implications of China's demographic policies. In 2017, she published the influential article, In Plain Sight: The Neglected Linkage between Brideprice and Violent Conflict. Ayaan, Chris, Valerie, welcome. All right, what happened? Let me quote from, or some statistics from "Prey." Almost 3 million people have arrived illegally in Europe since 2009. Close to 2 million in 2015 alone. A majority have come from Muslim majority countries. Two thirds are male, and 80% of asylum applicants are under the age of 35. An enormous wave of immigrants to Europe who are young, Muslim, and male. What happened, Ayaan, what cause this?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: I would say three things cause this. The first is the European political and other elite leadership who have failed in developing a sensible immigration policy. That's number one. Number two, I also say that the same group of leaders, and this is over decades, have failed to understand Islam as a religion, as a culture and as a neighboring civilization. And then finally, this is having an impact and unintended negative consequence in the streets of Europe. And this book eliminates that the third P is the impact that it's having a zoom in on women, women are facing an increased violence, sexual violence in the public place, but it's not only limited to women. Jewish minorities, homosexuals, members of Muslim communities who opt to be assimilated into European values are all facing problems, but it is these three, I think at the core of it it is a failure of leadership of European leaders and a betrayal of the institutions that they are supposed to lead.

Peter Robinson: Another handful of statistics from "Prey." France, a 17% increase in rapes from 2017 to 2018. Germany, victims of rape and sexual coercion rose by 41% in 2017. Sweden, a 12% increase in reported sex offenses in 2016. England and Wales again, a sharp increase in sexual crimes. Young Muslim males arrive and sex crimes increase. Valerie why?

Valerie M. Hudson: What I'd like to point out is that even if we struck the adjective Muslim from that, my own research has shown is that when the sex ratio of the society becomes highly masculinized, and that could be through immigration because the first wave of migrants is almost always young adult men, but it could also be through sex ratio alterations such as we see in China. And so even in China and in India with also highly masculinized sex ratios, we have seen growth in violent crime, but especially in sex crime. But I think Ayaan's argument is that coming from societies where women are seen as fair game actually can exacerbate this tendency. Sex differences are real and it matters if two thirds of the migrants coming to your country are unaccompanied young adult males.

Peter Robinson: Oh, so Chris come in here anytime you'd like, but here's a quotation again from "Prey," you've raised this point just now Valerie. And Ayaan herself writes, "Why does this book focus only on Muslim men "and not on all men when sexual violence "and contempt for women are universal phenomena?" So what, I don't know if it's possible to tease this out, but I'm almost thinking in kind of terms of proportions, what proportion of the problem that appears now in Europe is because men are men and what proportion because they're Muslim men, Chris.

Christopher Caldwell: Well, there is a context to all of this, which is the evolution of Western society. And the increase in reported rape and sexual offenses, I don't doubt the reality of it, but a part of it is the increased sensitivity and the increased awareness, let's call it without entering the argument of Western elites. I remember about five years ago, The Washington Post tried to do a survey of sexual assault on campus around the time of the Duke lacrosse hoax we now know, but--

Peter Robinson: That was what, a decade ago, I seem to--

Christopher Caldwell: Yes, let's say a decade ago, I'm sorry. And they discovered that the biggest problem campus was Brown University in Rhode Island, which I think was not what they were looking for and it led them to believe that actually this was as much a phenomenon of reporting as it was of actual incidents. There's no doubt that there's something changing in Europe's youth. And I think Valerie makes a very good point about just the anthropological difference between predominantly male societies and predominantly female societies. But a lot depends on the cultural context in which those imbalanced societies arise. So for instance you can have the sort of like platoon marauding through Vietnam, which is one sort of hyper male society. On the other hand, if you look at the places where female suffrage arose in the early 20th century, the first place that happened was in the American West. And part of the reason is that these societies were heavily male and it was something, and let's just say that the men were, women were in short supply, they were in high demand. They were in sort of in control of the society just by their very rareness. So this happening in a sort of like an ordered sort of stable Western society can actually produce fruits for women.

Peter Robinson: Okay, Ayaan, I have to confess, I wasn't expecting this. The gate opens and Chris and Valerie come out and there are some problems with your fundamental thesis here. Valerie says, Valerie may not let me get away with this, but I'm going to try to put this--

Valerie M. Hudson: No I won't let you get with that.

Peter Robinson: The most where I can--

Valerie M. Hudson: Yeah, yeah, I know--

Peter Robinson: Because of, I have a feeling Ayaan will be able to handle herself. Valerie says, wait a minute, it's not Muslim men necessarily, it is men. And Chris says, wait a minute, all right, all right, probably there is some extra or additional, there's something real taking place, but part of what's going on is that we live in a time when European societies, the welfare state, everyone is cautious and sensitized, and they're going to report activity, report crimes in a way that they didn't before. So some Muslim men creating violence, it's men who are a problem as men. And by the way, it may not be as much violence as it looks like anyway. And Ayaan says--

Valerie M. Hudson: Well I would like to reply kindly.

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah, I think.

Peter Robinson: Come in Valerie okay.

Valerie M. Hudson: Yes, the men part does absolutely matter, there's no doubt about that. But I think Ayaan makes a very persuasive argument that these men are coming from cultures in which women are seen as prey. She mentions the traditions of modesty, of honor and honor killings and the norm of gender segregation. These kinds of things cannot be said, for example of China. And so while we have seen an increase in rapes in China, because of the sex ratio alteration, I think what you're seeing in Europe is that trend being exacerbated by the cultural context from which these young men come. So I will --

Christopher Caldwell: If I may say Peter I--

Peter Robinson: Either rising to her defense, but Ayaan--

Christopher Caldwell: No, no, I'm rising to my own defense, it's what I say,

Christopher Caldwell: If I raise Europe, it's not because I deny the reality of Ayaan describing in the Muslim world. It's because it sort of takes two to tango, okay? I would describe one incident. Let's say if there has been one incident in European Muslim relations over the last decade that stood out above all others. And remember, this has been a time of mass migration. It's been a time of some pretty serious acts of terrorism above all in Paris. The one incident that I think still sticks in all European's minds is the mass sexual assault in Cologne on New Year's Eve of 2015 to 2016. It's a very serious thing. I trust Ayaan to talk about that today. But what I insist on is that the European context of that and the European reaction to it is a very important part of this problem.

Peter Robinson: Ayaan pick up the pieces of the mess I've just made.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: So Peter, let me put it out there. I consulted with Valerie and with Christopher during the process of writing this book. And I think it added a great deal of value to the book to acknowledge exactly what Valerie said which is there is the male part of the story, young men in any given context, and then in large numbers to engage in sexual misconduct. And then what Christopher says is also correct. And so having, and thank you both. And I don't think that there is a contradiction, it's just, when Christopher says, look, there is a context, there is an evolution in the Western, be it America or Europe, there is an evolution in the relationship between men and women. I want to make it even more explicit and say, and I think I'll get into trouble for this, but I'm used to it, I think that it is a given in Western society that the general society condemns sexual violence against women, not just in the law books, but also in private. When people are in their, behind closed doors in their homes, they still condemn sexual violence. That then takes me to almost the mirror opposite of what's going on in the Arab Middle East, in south Asia, in parts of Africa, what we've come to call Muslim majority countries or Islamic civilization, sexual violence against women is condemned, but there is a but and then if. Valerie pointed to the modest. Women are divided into good women and bad women. Good women behave according to the honor code and they have the protection of their male relatives. Females who find themselves out of that orbits, where they are not considered modest and they have no male protection, they put themselves at crisp of what happened in Cologne, the rape game it's called in North Africa, and it's called Taharrush. It happened to Lara Logan and I have Lara Logan's detail in the book. So I think it's extremely important. And this is where the Europeans failed. Europeans have had a longer relationship with the Arab world, with the Middle East and with the Muslim world than America has, but at least since the 1960s or 70s, they have been in denial about cultural aspects of the Muslim world that is very different from cultural aspects in Europe. And I think it's extremely important to say this, to understand it and to research it without having to deal with the kind of demonization that all three of us--

Peter Robinson: Yes.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Valerie and Christopher have all dealt with. And the more people like us are demonized, the more you have these dramatic, I'm trying to be very, very careful. And the reason is I don't want to present false a cause and effect narrative here. The story of this book is that there is a correlation and there's a very strong correlation between the spikes in sexual violence that we're seeing and immigration from Muslim majority countries. And that we need to follow up on this correlation, see exactly where it leads in order to develop sensible policy.

Peter Robinson: Chris raised the incident in Cologne on New Year's Eve of which year again was it?

Christopher Caldwell: New Year's Eve of 2015, which means New Year's day of 2016 and so--

Peter Robinson: 2016, all right. So, large numbers of German women and large numbers of recent immigrant young males, and there's just a kind of melee of sexual crimes. All right, by the way, I want to stipulate here that "Prey," although we're going at it as at least I enjoy that kind of conversation, but "Prey" is a meticulously researched book and very carefully argued. I just want to stipulate it's full of statistics and incidents that illustrate points that are, this is not a polemic. This is a serious work of sociology. All right.

Valerie M. Hudson: And can I point out--

Peter Robinson: Yes.

Valerie M. Hudson: That they didn't just take pre-existing statistics because in many cases, those statistics did not exist.

Peter Robinson: Right.

Valerie M. Hudson: They actually had to do their own--

Peter Robinson: Yes.

Valerie M. Hudson: Investigation to come up with the statistics in the book. So my hat is off to them for that incredible undertaking.

Peter Robinson: This is the product of hard scholarly work. And that sets up the question that I want to ask, is one, we talked about the incident in Cologne and you say the Europeans have been putting their heads in the sand. They've been in denial. They're refusing to see what's taking place, but there's an incident you describe. It's just one of many, but it struck me as telling because it's not just denial. It's something different from that. You tell a story, this is in France, young Bangladeshi who's sentenced for raping a 15 year old girl in Normandy was suspended. The criminal is allowed to walk and you quote a legal expert whom you interviewed about this. "He was permitted to walk because," said the legal expert, "he had been deeply influenced "by the culture of his country "where women are relegated to the status of sexual objects." But that's not turning away.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Yes.

Peter Robinson: That is incorporating alien values into the French legal system, is it not? This is not turning away, this is beginning to make adjustments, beginning to make concessions, is that not so?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's like shifting sand. So you run into, again, I want to, what you said, no existing statistics. You ask the agencies who's responsibility it is to keep up with this research, why is there no existing statistic? And they say, "We don't do that." You say we think that there is a spike in sexual violence against suing them that may have to do with immigration and immigrants. That is forcefully denied and we are told no sexual violence has always been there. It's universal, all men do it. So you get that type of argument. In these case by case incidents that take place, the lawyers who defend the perpetrators will obviously use anything and everything they can get. And if they can get a more lenient sentence or an acquittal for a perpetrator by bringing in culture into it, they do that and it works. And I have seen, Valerie, thank you for your very, very kind words, but the reason why I didn't accept, sorry of, we just don't have the statistics, or it doesn't happen, it's because I lived in Europe, I lived in the Netherlands for 14 years and I became familiar with all the tactics of denial of evasion of not wanting to know, or if the problems become overwhelming of simply dumping it on the working class groups who and just dismissing these people as racists, xenophobes, what have you never ever coming to the point of actually addressing these issues. And I think ultimately that's what I hope to achieve with the book is to have a serious conversation about what is going on and how long this is sustainable.

Peter Robinson: Valerie.

Valerie M. Hudson: I'd like to point out that one of the most horrifying aspects of the whole Cologne situation that sticks in every woman's mind is what the reaction of the authorities was. The authority said to the women, it's clear you can't come into these public spaces like you have in the past.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Yes.

Valerie M. Hudson: And we'll set aside a special section for you that will have some increased policing, but maybe you ought to think about whether you should come to these kinds of things at all, which was just horrifying I think for every European woman and every woman everywhere to hear is that the burden and the cost of these kinds of crimes would be placed squarely on the women themselves. They would be told to vacate problematic spaces. They would be told they would need to segregate. That I think is what most women were left with, a very bad taste.

Christopher Caldwell: I think the expression used by the Cologne authorities was that the women should have known to keep these men at arms length was with the--

Peter Robinson: The oldest and most outrageous response possible. You ask for it, right?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: You asked for it, yeah.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: I think that's what you were alluding to. And in fact, yes, that is, part of the subtitle is that there is an erosion of the rights of women and that manifests itself in what the authorities were saying to the women. You had to keep these men at arms length, why did you go to this context? So many concerts have been canceled. I think there was one big concert in Sweden that was canceled and it had nothing to do with the pandemic, this is 2019, but what is even more tragic is what individual women are doing. Some of the women I interviewed said that they didn't need the authorities to tell them to adjust their behavior. They do it anyway because they can't deal with every day there's the girl who is taking, she's a young woman who is taking her toddler to daycare before she goes to work. And she tells me what goes through her mind before she leaves her front door, the groups of men on the sidewalk who start hissing and ceasing and making these noises. And she tries to put ear pods to drown out that kind of obscene noise, but then they come and they touch her and they grope her and she feels so unsafe and filthy from her house to the daycare center, to her work and back. And this is an everyday thing. And some of these women have decided they don't want to live that way. So it's not some kind of top-down, you have to adjust, women are doing it anyway and they're from the public space, women are no longer going out to jog. They're not going out to swim. They're not going out to the pub. They're not going out to socialize the way they used to. And many of them and their families have moved to other parts of, those who could afford to. But I think in ultimately for the working class women, we are in many neighborhoods in different European settings where women can't move. There's nowhere to go. Have already adjusted.

Peter Robinson: Ayaan talked about the Netherlands, Valerie talked about the incident in Cologne in Germany, Chris has written a long piece on France. Chris writes in The Wall Street Journal that "Emmanuel Macron has resolved to be the president "who finally eases tensions "over France's young and growing Muslim population." And as Chris well knows, there are a lot of people, Douglas Murray wrote that Macron deserves everyone's admiration for giving this a try. That's the European leader who has opened his eyes and is making an effort. How is the effort going? Here's Chris, once again, "When French leaders sing the praises "of an Islam of the enlightenment, "one wonders whether this is a realistic prospect "or a figment of their ideological imaginations. "Muslims themselves may prefer the real Islam "they have studied and loved "over the Islam of Republican values "that Mr. Macron is proposing." So even the French effort, the best effort taking place in Europe is not going well. Chris, am I overreading your analysis?

Christopher Caldwell: No, I don't think you are. I think of late Macron has tried to take a kind of a strong line on migration. And I think the reason for that is the polls that he has seen about, there's a presidential election in France next year. And Marine Le pen, the candidate of the populist right, is polling pretty much neck and neck with Macron, which is sort of a surprise. So of late Macron has been speaking in a hardline way. In general, this has been, the attitude you described has been the European one, to assume that Islam is going to naturally sort of fold itself into a, let's say an enlightenment model, the way European Christianity's did. Now, there's a lot of problems with that in the European context. First of all, it really appeared that Christianity was going in that direction for about a half a century after the French Revolution, it was a period of very low religious belief. And actually Tocqueville writes about this in his book on the revolution. But suddenly it turned around and suddenly you had a robust European Christianity. So I think that--

Peter Robinson: There are a lot of analogy that is weak.

Christopher Caldwell: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So even in the most favorable circumstances, that is the people most inclined to accept the French enlightenment disposition, pull back from it and return to religion. So I don't think there's any reason to assume that Muslims will be less inclined to do that. And by the way, I don't think that that's an unnatural or a negative thing to do, to want to pull back from a purely rationalistic view of society to a more religion-centered or God-centered view of society. I don't think there's anything negative about that per se, but it's going to make, but in the context of a very foreign religion and a religion that has been at odds with the European way of life, for about a millennium or a millennium and a half, such an anchoring in religion is bound to create conflict.

Peter Robinson: So the notion, I haven't studied this obviously, the way all three of you have, but I feel it that Europeans said, look, look, look, yes, it's very bad right now, but just wait. We Europeans lead such a wonderfully attractive, enjoyable, comfortable life. It can't be more than a generation before these recent immigrants come to and start to live the way we live. Of course they will, we're just such attractive people. Our life is so attractive. And Chris is saying that is just untenable.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's untenable.

Valerie M. Hudson: So Ayaan book musters evidence to show that at least concerning attitudes towards women that is not correct. She shows that in a sense there's been a push to have a first-generation in every generation. And that the children of that first wave of immigrants do not show more enlightened attitudes towards women than their parents. This should trouble, I think all of us. Perhaps they are willing to adopt capitalism and perhaps they're willing to adopt a male Western dress and so forth. But when it comes to women, women are the ones in a sense who will keep the identity going. They are the reproducers not simply in a biological sense, but in a social sense. So they must be very tightly controlled. What came into my inbox this morning was the tragic story of a young woman in Italy, a daughter of first generation Pakistani immigrants. She refused to marry her cousin back in Pakistan. And so the family killed her and buried her. And they're looking for her body as we speak. So the reproduction, if you will, of the suppression and subordination of women will continue.

Peter Robinson: Valerie, let me try, what the French are attempting is being complicated. They're trying to get Islamic groups to register and to be licensed, oh fine. Ayaan says that one reform that they need is immigration reform in which they pay closer attention to the values of immigrants they permit in. And I see the work of Valerie Hudson. And I say to myself, wait a minute, Valerie may be on to something that's a lot simpler and more effective. Let me quote you, Valerie, this is you in Politico, not long ago. "As many governments debate how many migrants to accept, "they would be wise "to take gender balance into consideration. "Years of research have shown that male dominated societies "are more susceptible to violence "and mistreatment of women." Well, wait a minute, the European governments need only say, that's it, moratorium on male immigrants until we get some balance here, or at least they can say from this point forward, we're only going to permit gender balanced immigration, and that's all they need to do. Valerie.

Valerie M. Hudson: Well, Canada has that precise approach, but they have the luxury of having the entire Atlantic Ocean separate them from the countries from which these migrants are coming.

Peter Robinson: Yeah.

Valerie M. Hudson: Europe doesn't have quite that same luxury, but you're right. Canada has said, we will accept no unaccompanied young adult males, none whatsoever. If they're not coming with a family group, they're not coming to Canada, unless they're identified as targets of some sort of special discrimination such as being homosexual or things of that nature. I think the problem is that you have graphical problem, which is these young men are good and come no matter what. Now you haven't pointed out Denmark, right? Which is now saying , if you come to Denmark we're going to ship you to another country outside Europe--Sweden. From which you can apply. You haven't mentioned Hungary, which I said we're not accepting any at all. So, I think there's an interesting diversity of approaches to what do you do? But I think Ayaan has pointed out in her book, one of the most important things is language and values assimilation as well as workforce participation. I spent a sabbatical in Australia and I was delighted to discover that on the test for Australian citizenship, our questions such as is it legal under Australian law to beat your wife? Is it legal under Australian law to arrange a marriage for your daughter? Is it legal under Australian law to circumcise your daughter? And of course the critics said, well, they all know what the correct answer is to the question, right? They'll just answer it insincerely, but that's not the point. The point is they're being made aware that unless they are willing to subscribe to these more enlightened understandings of male-female relations that they're out of step with Australian societies. And it also tells women that they have those rights under Australian law. So I think Ayaan is on the right path when she talks about assimilation in terms of value assimilation as well as language assimilation as well as participation in the workforce.

Peter Robinson: And only another couple of questions before we go to questions from our viewers here, but let me anticipate the afterword to the paperback edition of Ayaan's book "Prey" by coming to another piece by Chris Caldwell, this is in National Review. It's a staggering thing, but let me just read it here. "Africa is adding people at a rate "never before seen on any continent. "The population of sub-Saharan Africa alone, "now about a billion people, "will more than doubled to 2.2 billion by mid-century, "while that of Western Europe will fall "to a doddering half billion or so." Chris continues to note that by 2050, these are all UN statistics, I think Chris, you're not plucking these--

Christopher Caldwell: Yes.

Peter Robinson: Out of any country--

Christopher Caldwell: No, no, this is the UN.

Peter Robinson: All right.

Christopher Caldwell: Yes.

Peter Robinson: By 2015 Nigeria alone will have a population of over 400 million. So if present populations and proportions in Nigeria whole, that's 200 million Muslims. Nigeria is about half and half. So the immigration to Europe of the last five to 10 years that has produced this round of violence, that has produced this denial is as nothing to what is coming, is that correct Chris?

Christopher Caldwell: I think that's right, yes. I mean, when you talk about a billion people in a not particularly productive part of the world that is, it's harder to feed a person in Africa than it is elsewhere. When you add children at a great rate, I mean, it can be a great boon for a society, but that tends to come further down the line. I mean, the effort of bringing up dependence usually puts further strain on societies. And the major development in Europe over the last 10 years has been the sort of removal of the government in Libya to turn Libya into a fairly lawless area. So basically there's no longer a wall between Africa and Europe. There's basically a set of smuggling businesses who operate out of Tripoli and are kept in check sometimes and allowed to operate sometimes by the authorities there who are depending on which part of Libya you're in under Turkish or Russian influence. And so you have a pretty wide open Mediterranean now. Now an interesting element to this that I have not yet looked into is how much of this migration that's coming from Sub-Saharan Africa is of Muslims and how much is of Christians because the countries that they draw from tend to have a large number of both. I have not seen work on that and maybe Ayaan would know. Anyway, that I think is this. That is the raw material of the transformation of Europe for the next let's say generation or so.

Peter Robinson: So Ayaan if they're in denial now, what happens to Europe? Or do you get, Valerie mentioned there are experiments, so to speak, taking place. Denmark is saying, "Come to us, "we'll ship you out of the country right away." Hungary is saying, "We're gonna control our own borders. "Thank you very much." I don't know what they should do, honestly--

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Yeah.

Peter Robinson: In anticipation of, so what do you make of all of this?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: So there are different scenarios possible, and you could take best case type of scenarios where you'd say, okay, all of these European countries gets together on an EU level and they adopt Austrianish and maybe the Hungarian approaches, which is to embark on a part of developing very sensible, practical racial policies. Go back to the idea of borders. It's almost a blasphemy now in some of these countries to use the word borders, or to use the phrase nation, state, and national identity. So there's that scenario where they do that and embark on a program of value assimilation as Valerie described precisely. But there's also a scenario where that doesn't happen. I think France is in a very tense place right now. You had a number of ex generals in the military write an open letter where they're alluding to a civil war, and many of the French intellectuals, I think Christopher you know some of them better than I do, for a long time have been warning against this . I've been speaking to journalists in Sweden today and yesterday. And they say that there is a sense of hopelessness, but also a deep sense of anger in Sweden. People in Sweden are clenching their fists and expressing themselves in ways that their leadership is not channeling into good things. So in this type of clenched fist scenarios, I think the scenario that that can lead to, you saw in the Balkans in the 1990s, where you have a meltdown of institutions and then these countries break into factions, and then we are really talking about very dreadful case. Now I wanna add one more point where Christopher left off and said Africa and Islam. Look the content of Africa is large. And I think that very little attention is now paid to the spread of radical Islam. ISIS was, I don't want to say destroyed, but I mean their grip on the territories in Syria and Iraq, that was taken away from them, but their ideology, their organization, their fundraising, all of that has now moved to very frail and fragile states in Africa. And so if you say can you look into the next, what will the next two decades for Africa, it's going to bring an Islamization in Africa and off the radical sort. And that is also going to push them more people out who may come through the Mediterranean and other routes. There are four hoots in total, but what is without a doubt is the number of Muslims who will come from Africa, the Middle East and South Asia, and come into Europe. That will be huge and yes, the European leadership is not prepared for it.

Peter Robinson: Last question, and this is for each of you, and I'm gonna indulge myself a little bit by taking a moment or two to set it up. I'll use three quotations. Ayaan Hirsi Ali in "Prey," "If European leaders continue to stick "their heads in the sand, "then I believe that within a decade or two, "there will be a meaningful rollback of women's rights." Here's quotation number two, Valerie Hudson. "What you do to your women, you do to your nation state. "If you decide to curse your women, "you will curse your nation state as well."

Valerie M. Hudson: That's right.

Peter Robinson: So Ayaan argues in the first quotation that the rights of European women are in danger and Valerie argues that means that European nations themselves are in danger. Now here's the third quotation, Christopher Caldwell. "Since the turn of the century, "Europeans have been faced "with the most basic question about their future: "whether they have one." Last question, do they? Valerie.

Valerie M. Hudson: Oh, that's a wonderful question that I ask myself, even though I'm an American. And Ayaan points out in her book that what Western women have achieved, not only in terms of civil and legal rights, but economic rights, marriage rights, rights to personal safety, norms that sexual violence is wrong even within the household. Do you realize that I am sure the percentage of women who have ever had that package of rights even on the planet right now is very small. And if we look at the history of humankind, must be the tiniest, tiniest fraction of women who have ever lived. If Europe is willing to jettison that incredible, absolutely revolutionary legacy, then I am gobsmacked as to what they think their future will be, because it will not be a good one.

Peter Robinson: Chris.

Christopher Caldwell: I think Europe is in a very complicated position. I don't think it has a clear path forward. That is I think Valerie looking at this problem sees a right choice and a wrong choice. I think that the problem is that Europe has become sort of relativistic, okay? We talked about that court case in France--

Peter Robinson: France, yeah.

Christopher Caldwell: I believe you said France is now importing foreign values as French. Well, it has signed up to the project of the European Union. It now has agreed to a process under which French law is subordinate to law decided in Brussels and under the influence of the German economy, excuse me. And once you decide to do that, you'll say it's an easy enough thing to say to the average French citizen. Okay you're gonna take a certain amount of dictation from people in Bulgaria, why will you take dictation from people in Bulgaria and not the considerably more sophisticated civilization of Turkey? You know what I mean? What's so special about, if you're going to allow your institutions to be subordinated to those of, I don't know, name a macho Mediterranean country in Europe, why not sort of take things in stride when it comes to sort of certain compartments that strike you as North Africa.

Peter Robinson: Chris can I, I'm sorry, Ayaan, we give you the closing word--

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah.

Peter Robinson: In just a moment. I see Chris so seldom that I can't resist I--

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah.

Peter Robinson: Is Germany a special problem here in as much as A, whether they want to or not and they seem not to want to, they dominate the European Union and B, the war guilt just doesn't seem to go away.

Christopher Caldwell: Well.

Peter Robinson: In some basic way they wish their own dissolution as a nation.

Christopher Caldwell: Well, you could say that the United States has sort of developed that type of ideology itself in the last five or 10 years. So I don't think that the Germany is outside of the range of what--

Peter Robinson: They're not.

Christopher Caldwell: We see here. I think Germany has some special problems. I think there are too complicated to go into in this context. I mean, I would say that for historical reasons, they've been deprived of sovereignty, a certain amount of sovereignty and a certain amount of self rule. And so they tend to favor a system in Europe that limits sovereignty and self rule for others, which I think leaves other countries with fewer financial resources at their disposal, without the ability that Germany has to deal with these problems. But I think that's a different, I think that's it's slightly off of our thoughts.

Peter Robinson: As to the problem we're discussing right now, Germany is not a special, it's just--

Christopher Caldwell: I don't know.

Peter Robinson: Another European, all right, thank you.

Christopher Caldwell: It's got interesting particularities. I mean, the Turkish minority is very interesting, very successful in many ways. I mean, economically in terms of cultural achievements, very unsuccessful in terms of assimilation. It's its own thing, Germany.

Peter Robinson: It's its own thing.

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah.

Peter Robinson: Ayaan, the future of Europe.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: So there are different futures that are possible, there is the bleak one that we've all just talked about. I have to say there are obviously thousands of Muslims in Europe who are fully assimilated, but because they're assimilated into European norms and values, they can't fulfill the fantasy Macron has and other European leaders that equals to a European Islam. There is just no European Islam, but people who are pushing Islam as a set of norms, value, civilization, those are the Islamists. The ones who are assimilated are not doing that. There might be a good scenario where we were talking about women, the working class women of Europe and the assimilated immigrant women who are seeking more from their families and so on. They form some form of a coalition and blow life into the dying embers of feminism in Europe, that's possible. And it's something that I would encourage wholeheartedly. In fact, during the process, while I was writing this book, the people who are most honest, most forthcoming were the assimilated immigrant individuals or their children, whether they are men or women, or who gave me, I would say the most heartening idea of what Europe would look, but what they're pushing forward is not a new Islam, or a Euro Islam, or any of that nonsense. It is basically a return to the traditions and the legacy of the enlightenment and everything that they found in Europe. And that is wonderful about Europe. And then the scenarios that we have all discussed, the negative ones right now prevail in my head. But then you know a process like Brexit, you look at again, what Macron is doing in France. What's going on in Denmark. You tie all of these things together, and there might be an opportunity for a Renaissance, who knows? But I wholeheartedly agree with what Valerie is saying, that if they carry on allowing their European women to be subjected to a place where they have to live with the honor code. And the word modesty is now gaining in currency, then I think it's finished.

Peter Robinson: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Christopher Caldwell, and Valerie Hudson thank you. For Uncommon Knowledge, the Hoover Institution and Fox Nation, I'm Peter Robinson.