A CRISIS OF FAITH: The Crisis in the Catholic Church

Thursday, June 27, 2002

The year will be remembered as a difficult one for the Catholic Church in America. Sex abuse scandals and criticism of the church's response to those scandals dominated the headlines for months. Sexual abuse is not the only subject creating controversy within Catholic circles. Other divisive matters include the role of women within the church, gay priests, and the relation of American bishops to the Vatican. Is the Catholic Church in danger of losing its constituency in America? Are substantial reforms in the structure and teachings of the Catholic Church necessary? Or are reforms what got the church in trouble in the first place?

Recorded on Thursday, June 27, 2002

Peter Robinson: Today on Uncommon Knowledge: the Catholic Church in the United States--how to bring the flock back into the fold.

Announcer: Funding for this program is provided by the John M. Olin Foundation and the Starr Foundation.


Peter Robinson: Welcome to Uncommon Knowledge, I'm Peter Robinson. Our show today: how to fix the Catholic Church. Of all the 2002 years in the church's history, the two thousand and second will not be remembered as among the easiest, at least not here in the United States. A sex abuse scandal involving priests and young children and criticism of the church's response to the scandal dominated the headlines for months. So, how to reform the Catholic Church in America?

On the one hand, there are those who believe the church needs to become more faithful to its own traditional teachings. On the other, those who believe the church needs new departures, permitting priests to marry, for example, and ordaining women. On our program today a discussion, a sometimes heated discussion, of all these issues.

Joining us three guests. Rod Dreher is a senior writer for National Review Magazine. Father Joseph Fessio is chancellor of Ave Maria University. And Garry Wills, a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian, is author most recently of Why I am A Catholic.

Title: Faith in Our Fathers?

Peter Robinson: Catholic intellectual Michael Novak: "No priests faithful to the teaching of the church and to their own vows caused any of the scandals. Traditional teaching did not fail, far from it, orthodoxy has been vindicated and progressivism found utterly bankrupt." Father?

Father Joseph Fessio: Well, I wish that were entirely true but there are a lot of very orthodox homosexual priests around.

Peter Robinson: Garry?

Garry Wills: Progressivism can hardly be blamed. Most of the famous pedophiles who have come out, went into the seminary in the fifties long before the counsel. And their superiors who covered up for them had come in even before that. So blaming it on the progressive Sixties or something is kind of silly to me.

Peter Robinson: Rod?

Rod Dreher: That's generally true but the biggest scan--part of the scandal has been the cover up by bishops and so-called orthodox bishops are just as guilty as the more progressive ones are of covering up for these priests.

Peter Robinson: All right. Let's go through a series of reforms that have been proposed. Celibacy. I quote Garry Wills: "A man without a wife to puncture his pomposity, without children to challenge his authority, in relations carefully structured to make him continuously eminent easily becomes convinced of his superior wisdom. The real enemy is celibacy." Now then, how is it that permitting priests to marry would have prevented them from molesting young men and children?

Garry Wills: Well, I think that the proportion of molesters would be quite different and I think having women around would have led to a different attitude toward children. I can't imagine priests' wives allowing this to happen or for that matter, ordained women. The callousness toward children would not have been there with women.

Peter Robinson: Father?

Father Joseph Fessio: I think a man needs a community to be in either a marriage community, wife and children, or a religious community or a parish community in which he's really a part. I don't see any problem with a person who's celibate having his pomposity punctured. It happens to me all the time. I know it happens to other priest friends of mine. So I don't--I agree with the principle. I don't think that…

Peter Robinson: Garry, do you argue that celibacy, in and of itself, creates a kind of unnatural or inhuman atmosphere or environment for priests or--and that that has been so through all time or simply that in the circumstances of modern America, celibacy is no longer viable?

Garry Wills: Yeah, it's the clerical culture that celibacy leads to that is at fault. Now in the past, celibacy as an ascetic discipline was an acceptable thing. Now it's largely not seen that way. Now it's largely justified in terms of if I don't have a wife and child, I will be more concerned with people. It doesn't work that way. People are not more drawn, more intimate to priests because of celibacy. They are put off by it. They're considered strange or different. If you really wanted women, for instance, to be able to consult priests that they could trust and be intimate with, you should have women priests.

Peter Robinson: Well now Father, celibacy is a matter of discipline rather than of faith and morals…

Father Joseph Fessio: That's a bit facile.

Peter Robinson: It is facile?

[Talking at same time]

Peter Robinson: The Pope or the Vatican could tomorrow announce that it was permitting the creation of a married order.

Father Joseph Fessio: I don't think they could.

Peter Robinson: They couldn't?

Father Joseph Fessio: No, it's too much rooted in tradition. There has always been celibacy from apostolic times in this sense. Even married priests were continent. Now the rule was broken then like it's broken now. But this idea that celibacy came in the six century or the eleventh, that's a myth. Priests have been celibate in the sense of not being allowed to have concourse with their wives from apostolic times. And let's go to the basis--the basis of this is not practical. I just want to say one thing about--we're following Jesus Christ. Jesus was celibate. We as priests are trying to be one with him. Children loved him, women talked to him, so the idea that by being celibate, you can't be open to people, they won't come to you, that's nonsense.

Peter Robinson: Just on the practical matter, we have certain orders--Eastern Rite Orders that are in communion with Rome where priests are permitted to marry. We have some eighty, I think it is, in the United States, eighty formerly Anglican priests who converted to Roman Catholicism and are permitted to be priests in the Roman Church although they're married. So clearly there's scope for…

Father Joseph Fessio: …for exceptions?

Peter Robinson: …for exceptions?

Father Joseph Fessio: For exceptions, that's right. Peter, we need celibacy now more than ever in our sex-saturated society. It's worked for two thousand years in the church. We've had good men and good women. Remember nuns are celibate too. We haven't had pedophilia for two thousand years like we've had it now. There's some other explanation. Celibacy is not the problem. It's a solution.

Peter Robinson: You would like to see the requirement for celibacy removed for all priests or the creation…

[Talking at same time]

Garry Wills: I would like it to be voluntary. You know, if it's of such a--

Father Joseph Fessio: It is voluntary.

Garry Wills: No, it's mandatory. You can't be a priest and not be celibate.

Father Joseph Fessio: But you don't have to be a priest.

Peter Robinson: But for all priests in all circumstances, you'd like to see…

Garry Wills: Should be voluntary, yes.

Peter Robinson: Rod?

Rod Dreher: I don't think we should abandon celibacy yet. I'm open to the prospect that perhaps we could in the future but I don't think abandoning celibacy would solve this problem. Not one of these children who was molested would have not been molested if celibacy were…

Garry Wills: The cover up wouldn't have been different.

Rod Dreher: I don't think so.

Peter Robinson: Let me quote Garry Wills on another reform he'd like to see in the church.

Title: She's Gotta Habit

Peter Robinson: "The admission of women to the priesthood is bound to come." Now why is it that that is bound to come?

Garry Wills: Because the position of women has changed so drastically and the church has reflected the sociological conditions all through its existence. You know, it was a monarchy when there were monarchs. It's becoming accountable when there are accountabilities. The idea that a woman cannot be a priest--Paul VI said she can't be because she doesn't look like Jesus, which is an insult to our intelligence. The idea that a woman can't be a priest because the twelve were not makes no sense because the twelve are not priests. There are no priests in the Gospels, none at all.

Peter Robinson: Let me quote someone else. I quoted you saying the admission or the ordination of women to the priesthood is bound to come. Let me quote someone else. "In order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, I declare that the church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all of the church's faithful." John Paul II in an apostolic letter, May 1994. Now before we discuss the ordination of women in and of itself, how is it that you as someone who is a faithful Catholic, how do you deal with this statement by the…

[Talking at same time]

Garry Wills: Well, the way the majority of American Catholics do. They also agree that this is coming because the arguments used by Paul VI then endorsed by John Paul II are simply not valid.

Peter Robinson: Okay, but you're unraveling the whole Church of Rome now.

If you're refusing to accept…

Father Joseph Fessio: He's not making an argument. He's stating a fact there of doctrine. He's not making an argument.

Garry Wills: No, he's saying that the Pope said it; therefore we all have to agree. That's not been true.

Rod Dreher: Are we Catholics?

Garry Wills: Yeah, but that's not the definition of a Catholic.

Father Joseph Fessio: You have to be…

Garry Wills: In the past did we have to agree with him on interdicts, on indulgences, on usury, on the idea that you can get out of Purgatory by killing Cathars, that you have to burn witches? The Popes have had all kinds of positions in the past. And Newman said that the Popes have often--no he didn't say often but have at times been wrong and the laity has been right. The idea that there…

[Talking at same time]

Father Joseph Fessio: Yeah, I'm sorry, Garry. You don't accept the teaching of the Church on faith most because the arguments are good. You try and find…

Garry Wills: Oh yes you do, oh yes you do.

[Talking at same time]

Peter Robinson: Go ahead. Explain the question of authority.

Garry Wills: This is not a matter of revealed truth just because the Pope said it.

Rod Dreher: It's a question of authority. And if the Pope has a definitive teaching, we're obliged as Catholics to accept that and live by it. Otherwise, we're Protestants.

Garry Wills: On, for instance, contraception?

Rod Dreher: Yeah, yeah. You can laugh but--and many Americans do.

Garry Wills: Contraception is a natural law teaching so-called. It's not from revelation.

Father Joseph Fessio: Do you think the Church is an authority to proclaim on a natural law teaching?

Garry Wills: Natural law tradition is something that a person of goodwill and intelligence should be able to reach. A handpicked group of loyal, learned Catholics, priests, bishops and laymen looked at the arguments from natural law and said they make absolutely no sense.

Peter Robinson: This is in the late 1960s?

Father Joseph Fessio: Garry, you are really…

Garry Wills: Yes, they did.

Father Joseph Fessio: They didn't say they make absolutely no sense. They say they're not persuasive. That's what they said.

Garry Wills: Well, all right. All right.

Father Joseph Fessio: Well, that's a different thing, Garry.

Peter Robinson: All right now. We need to clarify just what this papal commission concluded on birth control.

Title: A Hard Pill to Swallow

Peter Robinson: Paul VI establishes a commission of varied composition just as you, yourself, said to look into the matter of contraception and they make a recommendation to the Pope himself, recommending changes in the total ban on artificial birth control that was the church's teaching to that point. There was however a minority, sizable minority of the commission which submitted its own dissenting report to the Pope saying no, we think that the Church…

[Talking at same time]

Peter Robinson: …and then the Pope did what?

Garry Wills: Cardinal Ottaviani rushed in a bunch of bishops at the end. He had first said there can be only one report. The majority will be the single report. When he found the report went against the way he wanted, he rushed in a group of bishops and had a minority report and then submitted that as if it had any holding.

Father Joseph Fessio: Garry, if you want to dissect every papal decision you're going to find out that they all depend upon committees and persons and historical circumstances and most seminal…

[Talking at same time]

Garry Wills: But those that agree with him, not ones that disagree.

Father Joseph Fessio: Look the fact is--yeah but it's irrelevant what went before the decision. When the Pope issues an edict on a matter like this which is consistent with the history of the church and it's definitively issued, that is teaching for the Catholic Church. We're obliged to accept it. Now I think the arguments are good by the way.

Garry Wills: No, I know you would.

Father Joseph Fessio: I think the arguments for a male priesthood that are very, very good but whether I think they're good or not, if I only accept things when I like the arguments, then I'm a Protestant.

Garry Wills: No, as I say the Pope has in many cases in the past, been wrong.

Father Joseph Fessio: No.

Garry Wills: Wrong on the interdict, wrong on indulgences…

Father Joseph Fessio: It's not faith…

[Talking at same time]

Peter Robinson: Let the record show for the purposes of this show that Garry holds a certain conception of conscience of an individual Catholic relative to the teachings of the Pope, and Rod and Father Fessio hold a different conception.

Father Joseph Fessio: This is a factual question. Whether the Pope has been wrong in matters of faith and morals in which he's taught authoritative and the answer is no. It's a miracle.

Garry Wills: Liberius was, Honorius was…

Father Joseph Fessio: Neither one…

Garry Wills: Honorius was a Pope whose heresy was declared by a whole series of successive popes. Now somebody was wrong, either the Popes that claimed him a heretic or Honorius when he was issuing the heresy.

Father Joseph Fessio: Garry, in 2000 years of history, you drag out the two closest things you can find but they've been refuted over and over.

Peter Robinson: Rod, sum up this argument for me, go ahead and then we'll move on. Go ahead.

Rod Dreher: I just wanted to say though that I think that one point we could agree on and this was said in Dallas by Scott Appleby that Humanae Vitae, the contraception ruling that came out from Paul VI was a watershed because at that point, American bishops and priests who may not have accepted it, they quit teaching what the church taught.

Peter Robinson: At that point, dissent from Rome becomes widespread, indeed endemic in the church in the United States…

Rod Dreher: We began living in bad faith, the American laity and the Catholic priesthood they pretended to believe it and the Catholic people, the laity pretended to believe it.

Peter Robinson: Onto the issue of homosexuality and the priesthood.

Title: Brothers in Arms

Peter Robinson: Let me quote Rod Dreher, "This is chiefly a scandal about unchaste or criminal homosexuals in the Catholic priesthood." Rod, explain yourself there.

Rod Dreher: It's true. In the reporting I've done, between 85 and 95% of those cases we know about involve homosexual priests sleeping with adolescent teenage boys, post pubescent boys.

Peter Robinson: That is to say the first case that became very famous, Father Geoghan if I'm pronouncing it corr…

Rod Dreher: Geoghan.

Peter Robinson: …Geoghan in Boston where he really was molesting little children.

Rod Dreher: He was a true pedophile.

Peter Robinson: But that although extremely well publicized, that kind of thing is a small minority of the actual cases?

Rod Dreher: Right. It's not…

Peter Robinson: Most of it is homosexual activity, priests molesting young men?

Rod Dreher: That's true.

Peter Robinson: Okay. Go ahead.

Rod Dreher: Yeah, the number of pedophiles, true pedophiles in the priesthood and in society at large is very, very small. This isn't a pedophilia scandal. This is about homosexual priests and teenage boys and I think it's just something, the so-called elephant in the sacristy to use Mary Eberstadt's phrase, that the media--they--the media don't want to look at this and neither does the church because there's so many--there's so many churchmen who are compromised, even bishops.

Peter Robinson: Okay. So when the bishops met in Dallas, it was proposed to them that they establish a commission to investigate any links between homosexuality in the priesthood and the scandal and by a voice vote, they didn't even consider it necessary to go through the formality of individual votes--by a voice vote, they voted not to pursue any such investigation. Did they do right or wrong?

Rod Dreher: I think they clearly did wrong because you're not going to get to the bottom of this scandal until you look at the homosexual networks in the Church, the so-called "lavender mafia" to use Father Greeley's phrase. And it's endemic throughout the seminaries which…

Peter Robinson: And how would you reform it?

Rod Dreher: I would reform it by kicking out a priesthood or refusing to allow into the seminary anyone--any man who did not intend to live by his vowed celibacy and particularly if he was sleeping with men.

Peter Robinson: Note well, you are not saying that you would try to screen out men with homosexual leanings or inclinations from entering seminary. You are simply going to try to apply a tighter, more rigorous screen on people's intention to live a chaste life?

Rod Dreher: That's right. Not only that but to support the church's teaching. You can cause damage by refusing to teach the truth as much as by teaching and living error. And if a man is homosexual in inclination but is dedicated to living chastely and to supporting the Church's teaching on human sexuality, then I have no problem with him being in a priesthood. As a layman, I don't have a particular problem with homosexually oriented priests because I happen to know some of my good friends are gay Catholics who are--do accept the Church's teachings and live heroically chaste lives. It can be done if you stay in fidelity.

Peter Robinson: But the reform is to emphasize chastity.

Rod Dreher: Chastity and fidelity to Church teaching.

Peter Robinson: Garry?

Garry Wills: Well the gaying of the priesthood is one of the side effects of celibacy. The heterosexuals left in great droves and the heterosexuals had little…

Peter Robinson: After--in what period of time...

Garry Wills: …from the Sixties…

Peter Robinson: You, of course, were always dealing with the centuries so please locate it if you can…

[Talking at same time]

Garry Wills: Well it started in the Fifties when I left.

Peter Robinson: Okay, in the Fifties.

Garry Wills: And the reluctance of others to come in is the same as the eagerness of those to go out. Well you've cut your pool down very drastically then of the people who are going to be coming in. Ones who don't want to marry are not going to come in, which means you're going to get a lot of gays. Another problem is that there--it's secret. I also know chaste gay people who are priests but they're Episcopalians. And they're open. Everybody knows it. There's nothing in their teaching that says they suffer under an objective disorder. It's a place where there are married priests, there are gay priests, there are single priests who are heterosexual. The option is there. It's not there in the Church. And therefore there's a subculture hiding because the Catholic position has always been that the gays are objectively disordered. So that even if they're chaste, they're not real role models as priests in many Catholics' eyes.

Peter Robinson: Does Garry really believe that the only way to get more heterosexual priests is to abandon the vow of chastity?

Title: Abandon Grope All Ye Who Enter Here

Peter Robinson: Surely your position is not either we remove the vow of celibacy or we're doomed. I mean, surely you have to be a little bit more practical than that and say look as things stay--even from your point of view, as things stand now, Rome is not about to swing around and repeal the vow of celibacy. Therefore, Rod Dreher makes a very good, from your point of view, interim suggestion. Let's at least enforce chastity.

Garry Wills: Well, if you can. On the other hand, if you start kicking out and excluding gays, you're not going to have many priests left. We don't have all that many to start with.

Peter Robinson: Father?

Father Joseph Fessio: Well we need more time and I need beer instead of water to really continue this discussion properly because, I mean, I would like to have a long discussion with you Garry because almost every sentence you make, I want to take exception to.

Garry Wills: I would expect that.

Peter Robinson: What about Rod Dreher's reform? Enforce chastity?

Father Joseph Fessio: First of all, I agree with the first part of his reform that you want to have people teaching in seminaries and people coming to seminaries who fully accept the Church's official teaching.

Peter Robinson: Right.

Father Joseph Fessio: That's step one. Okay. Because doctrinal abuse is worse than sexual abuse. All right. Secondly, I don't understand like Rod doesn't either the whole psychology of homosexuality. I'm sure there's a range between having a, you know, a temptation or whatever it wants--and being kind of permanently ordered sort of thing. I think that from what I know about homosexuality, it's not just a desire for the same sex. There's all kinds of other personality traits that go with it. And when you have people who are heavily on the one side into that spectrum, I don't think they make good candidates for the priesthood for a lot of reasons. But I'll tell you something as the heterosexual, I don't know what it feels like to be a homosexual but I would not want to enter a seminary with a bunch of women around my age, playing with them, eating with them, recreating with them. I mean, I get very tempted by those things. It's not a ha--it's not--so if a guy's really homosexual, I don't see what he's doing in a men's group, that's going to be a men's group for the rest of his life. I think that's a very dangerous thing. So I think for their good and for the good of the Church, those who have clearly on one end of the spectrum, that kind of a tendency should be excluded. But…

Peter Robinson: Go ahead.

Father Joseph Fessio: Let me just finish one thing.

Peter Robinson: Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

Father Joseph Fessio: I--you talk about friends who are homosexual but are chaste, that's fine. But that doesn't mean they should be priests. You see the priesthood is not a right anybody has. It's something for the good of the church. It's a service.

Peter Robinson: Okay. So but all three of you then would agree that homosexuality within the priesthood is a problem?

Garry Wills: Yes it is.

Peter Robinson: Everybody agrees with that?

Garry Wills: Precisely because it's a boy's club.

Peter Robinson: Well, all right. Okay, go ahead Rod.

Rod Dreher: I just wanted to make an interesting point. Father Thomas Doyle and Richard Sipe, the psychotherapist, both made an interesting point to me in my reporting. Neither one of them is on the church right by the way, but they said now would not be a good time to allow homosexual candidates into the seminaries because the predatory networks within the seminaries are so great that a gay man who enters the priesthood or enters the seminary intending to live chastely and accepting the Church's teaching, he hardly has a chance because they'll be all over him and force him to do things that he doesn't want to do or throw him out. And if, once he gets compromised, they've got him and they pers…

Garry Wills: And Jason Berry, who's a liberal, agrees with them too.

Peter Robinson: Last topic, the American Catholic bishops themselves.

Title: All Hat and No Paddle

Peter Robinson: We just agreed, everybody here, that homosexuality is a problem. The bishop said they don't even want to investigate it. You have bishops in this country who for the last two decades, three decades have been concerning themselves with politics, concerning themselves with psychology and psychotherapy and not involved in rigorous instruction in their seminaries and faithful teaching of the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church and the bishops themselves need to be reformed. Rod?

Rod Dreher: Oh absolutely. I don't disagree with that one bit.

Peter Robinson: Father?

Father Joseph Fessio: You're making a general--there are many good bishops now and previously but I do think that they should focus more on proclaiming the Catholic truth in its fullness and especially in their seminaries. And living the truth themselves. This is a crisis of truth we're up against here. People have not been teaching the truth. They've been covering up for error and then they've been unwilling to communicate with other people. I think Garry would agree with me on this. I'd like to see more lay involvement.

[Talking at same time]

Peter Robinson: Rod, so we are now in year 23 of the Pontificate of John Paul II and the bishops are still a mess. That is to say, if the Pope chooses not to crack heads and reform the bishops, the only recourse if for greater involvement by the laity, correct?

Rod Dreher: Correct. The only recourse is to call the media and call the police.

[Talking at same time]

Peter Robinson: So we are running out of time.

Garry Wills: The Pope has cracked heads

Peter Robinson: He has?

Garry Wills: Yes, he has appointed the bishops. He's appointed the Cardinals. He's appointed the one he wants and he has also told the national conferences that they have no theological basis. And therefore when they try to teach on something, Rome shuts them up. For instance, for year after year, the National Conference of Bishops tried to come up with a statement on women. It didn't advocate ordination for women. It advocated more participation of women in the life of the Church, reflecting the values of society around. Year after year, Rome just refused to accept that, shot it down, shot it down. They're told that they can't speak about celibacy, for instance. They can't speak about women. They can't speak about things that the Pope has said are closed issues. They're no longer to be discussed or debated. Scott Appleby also said here are all these Catholics, 80% who disagree with the Church on contraception and they can't talk to their bishops about that because the bishops say I'm silenced. Pope says this is not a matter we can discuss so that the breakdown of dialogue occurs right there.

Peter Robinson: You have--now you've put Father Fessio in pain--go ahead.

Father Joseph Fessio: This is preposterous. I know you're a scholar but you keep uttering these complete preposterous statements. Every bishop has a theological right and authority to teach in the name of Christ. Every bishop. Not bishop's conferences but that doesn't take away the authority of the bishop.

Garry Wills: In his own place.

Father Joseph Fessio: Well that's where he's supposed…

[Talking at same time]

Garry Wills: The problem here about…

Peter Robinson: But the canonical standing is…

Garry Wills: …about the pedophiles is that they couldn't form a national policy.

Father Joseph Fessio: They don't need a national policy.

Garry Wills: Yes they do.

Peter Robinson: All they had to do was behave as they ought to have behaved.

Rod Dreher: There was nothing in canon law that would have prevented any one of these bishops from taking care of this problem twenty, thirty years ago. Nothing and they keep coming up with these new policies saying well this new policy…

Peter Robinson: As indeed some of them did. Let's be fair to certain... Cardinal Hickey in Washington was very tough on priests. This is at least fifteen years ago now, he had instances of reported abuse and so forth and he handed the files over to the authority. So there you have at least one bishop who got tough right away.

Rod Dreher: The problem is you can't legislate in the Bishops Conference or anywhere else, you can't legislate holiness. You can't legislate decency in the hearts of these bishops…

Peter Robinson: Gentlemen, it's television so I've got to come to a last question here. Give me a brief statement; I do beg you to make it a brief statement. Rod, I'm going to begin with you, on what the American laity should do, the laity should do to participate in some reform of the Church in the United States.

Rod Dreher: Withhold their contributions. Give--keep tithing but give them to people like Mother Teresa's nuns to force the Church to change, to let the laity get involved in the financial oversight of their parishes.

Peter Robinson: Garry?

Garry Wills: I agree with that. The demand that Margaret Steinfels made and Scott Appleby in Dallas, is that we want accountability from you, from the bishops, on money, on policy, on appointments, on all those things. And I think that it's bound to come and this was a big step in the right direction. That's the good side of this scandal.

Peter Robinson: Father, we give you the last word.

Father Joseph Fessio: I agree with them and I would add however, that no matter how bad some bishops may be, some priests may be, Jesus Christ is present in the blessed sacrament even when the pedophile priest celebrates mass, that we can be--strive for holiness, we can have families, we can teach our children, we can pray the rosary, we can pray the office, we can be holy. We don't need a good pope or good bishops to be holy.

Peter Robinson: Rod Dreher, Garry Wills and Father Fessio…

Garry Wills: Everyone should speak up.

Peter Robinson: …thank you very much.

Peter Robinson: I'm Peter Robinson, for Uncommon Knowledge, thanks for joining us.