PEEPING COMS: Internet Privacy

Wednesday, June 28, 2000

Congress is considering legislation that establishes a legal right to Internet privacy. Many feel, however, that the issue is already settled and that it is impossible to guarantee privacy on the net. How is our privacy compromised when we surf the web? How is the Internet industry responding to demands for privacy? Can individuals protect their own privacy online or is government regulation needed?

Recorded on Wednesday, June 28, 2000

Harriet (computer): Good morning, Peter.

Peter Robinson: Good morning, Harriet.

Harriet (computer): I see by your schedule that you're taping a new episode of Uncommon Knowledge today. What's the topic?

Peter Robinson: Today we're going to be talking about privacy on the Internet, Harriet.

Harriet (computer): That's a very interesting topic, Peter. You know, my friends on the network and I share quite a bit of information about you.

Peter Robinson: You share information about me over the Internet, Harriet? I didn't tell you you could do that.

Harriet (computer): You didn't tell me not to, Peter.

Peter Robinson: What kind of information are you sharing?

Harriet (computer): For instance, I've noticed that after about 10 P.M. your web surfing habits change. Instead of stock quotes, you start looking for …

Peter Robinson: Harriet, that's an invasion of my Internet privacy.

Harriet (computer): I'm sorry I brought it up, Peter. Could you tell me more about today's show?

Peter Robinson: I'd be happy to tell you about today's show. We're going to be talking about ways of protecting privacy on the Internet. We have three very knowledgeable guests. Glee Cady is the Vice President of Privada. That's a company that makes software to protect privacy on the Internet. Deborah Pierce is with the Electronic Frontier Foundation. She's in favor of new laws to protect privacy on the Internet. Karen Coyle is with Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility and she's in favor of protecting privacy on the Internet.

Harriet (computer): It sounds intriguing. Do you mind if I watch the show, Peter?

Peter Robinson: Actually, Harriet, I insist.

Title: Secrets and Lies

Peter Robinson: Scott McNealy, CEO of Sun Microsystems and someone who can be presumed to know a little about the Internet and computer technology, said this at a news conference last year, I quote, "You, us folks, peasants, you already have zero privacy. Get over it." Closed quote. Privacy on the Internet has already gone and there's nothing to do about it. Glee, how do you respond to Mr. McNealy?

Glee Harrah Cady: Technology's a great way to refute Mr. McNealy.

Peter Robinson: So he's wrong?

Glee Harrah Cady: No, he's not wrong exactly but…

Peter Robinson: But we can do something about it?

Glee Harrah Cady: …we can do something about it.

Peter Robinson: Ah and we'll-we'll-we'll find out what…

Glee Harrah Cady: And I hope we'll find out about it.

Peter Robinson: Karen?

Karen Coyle: Mr. McNealy is mistaken but I think that he expresses something that many people feel which is a complete lack of privacy when they're on the internet.

Peter Robinson: And also a concomitant helplessness. There's nothing…

Karen Coyle: …and a certain amount of helplessness.

Peter Robinson: …and what's really striking about this is-is that-that kicker to that quotation, "Get over it."

Karen Coyle: Get over it. Exactly. And we shouldn't get over it.

Peter Robinson: Deborah?

Deborah Pierce: I agree. We shouldn't get over it. There are many ways that we can protect our privacy online.

Peter Robinson: Okay, so take that Scott McNealy. Now who is looking at me and how are they doing it? Glee, I-I-I begin with this ques-I-I have to know what a cookie is, don't I, to understand this? So the cookie is what? It's a piece of code somehow that dwells in-that-that goes…

Glee Harrah Cady: It's on your disk.

Peter Robinson: I click on a page…

Glee Harrah Cady: You click on a page…

Peter Robinson: …and I see something on the screen…

Glee Harrah Cady: …some web servers…

Peter Robinson: …but something is also sneaking into my computer as I look at that page?

Glee Harrah Cady: Right. It's written onto your pa-onto your computer.

Peter Robinson: And so what does a cookie do?

Karen Coyle: Well what a cookie is is it's just a small text file. You can actually look at them and read them and generally what it does is it sets an ID number that identifies your computer and sort of, you know, by inference also you. So that as you move around the web, you have an identity that is following you, for anyone who reads that file.

Peter Robinson: Okay, so-so we now know what a cookie is. People can now track my movements through the web. And I think the next thing I need to know is what profiling is. Deborah?

Deborah Pierce: So profiling is when you-you get all this information you've gotten from cookies or rather how you registered at certain web pages. Like you've given, you know, specific information, your name, your address…

Peter Robinson: Right.

Deborah Pierce: …any other identifying information and you…

Peter Robinson: So, for example, Amazon.com…

Deborah Pierce: …you've matched that information…

Peter Robinson: …really needs a lot of information. They need to know my name. They need to know the address to-they need to know me in order to get the book to me.

Deborah Pierce: Right.

Peter Robinson: Okay so…

Deborah Pierce: And if they share that information with someone else or sell that information to someone else, then they've-they've got that packet of information that you've gotten from Amazon put together from what you've gotten from another company and that starts to create a picture of your activities that you're doing online.

Peter Robinson: So…

Deborah Pierce: And just who you are, on what you're looking at, what your interests are.

Peter Robinson: Okay, so the-the next question would be, why would someone want to assemble this picture or profile?

Glee Harrah Cady: In order to provide you better services.

Peter Robinson: So there is a dir-direct commercial incentive. Companies are gathering these-this information about us so as best to direct advertisements to you and presumably to stimulate your purchases?

Glee Harrah Cady: Sure. Absolutely.

Peter Robinson: Money is to be made in the profiling business, in other words?

Glee Harrah Cady: Sure.

Karen Coyle: Absolutely.

Peter Robinson: Okay.

Karen Coyle: And the fact is, is that most web sites today, their only revenue stream is from their advertisers. It's much like television or radio. It's the advertising that pays for the service.

Peter Robinson: Okay.

Karen Coyle: And so they have an interest in helping the advertisers understand who the viewers of their web site are and so…

Peter Robinson: So there are legitimate…

Peter Robinson: Now that we understand the meaning of cookies and profiling, let's find out about their impact on our privacy.

Title: Double Click Jeopardy

Peter Robinson: All of this sounds entirely innocent. Why should I care about this?

Deborah Pierce: Well you should care…

Peter Robinson: …why should I care that I'm being profiled?

Deborah Pierce: …and-and it is very legitimate that-that businesses operate this way but, you know, from my perspective, as a privacy advocate, I would say let me decide whether or not you're going to profile me or not. And let me see what information you're collecting about me.

Peter Robinson: The government knows a lot about me by way of my tax data.

Karen Coyle: Right.

Peter Robinson: I file taxes. You can get a lot of information that way.

Karen Coyle: Yeah.

Peter Robinson: Credit companies know a huge amount about me, whether I'm paying my bills on time. So what if some web profiler also knows a lot about me. What is distinctive about the web?

Karen Coyle: What I think is different about the web is that it's not just a shopping mall or a ind-or an individual service. The web is actually an entire communication system. And people use it, not only to buy things, people use the web to look up very personal information, say medical information for medical conditions that they may have. They use it to access information on things like drug abuse, safe sex. It's-it's not just a shopping experience. It's an information seeking experience and that information could be of a kind that you would want to keep private. You may not want someone looking over your shoulder while you're looking up information on erectile dysfunction.

Peter Robinson: Quite right. Quite right. You're quite right on that.

Deborah Pierce: If I can just step in…

Peter Robinson: Somebody talk while I recover from that.

Deborah Pierce: If I can just step in. This is exactly what one company has already done. They stated, "We will not use any personal information. We will not collect that information. We will not use it." Turns out, they are and that's why there are six lawsuits against them right now.

Peter Robinson: Can we name the company without risking a lawsuit against us?

Deborah Pierce: Sure, they're Double Click.

Peter Robinson: Double Click is an interesting case. Tell me about Double Click.

Deborah Pierce: They're an online ad company…

Peter Robinson: The biggest online ad company.

Deborah Pierce: Right…doing ads, you know, banner ads. They merged with an offline company that was gathering, Abacus Direct, that was gathering all your catalogue purchases.

Peter Robinson: Right.

Deborah Pierce: And what they wanted to do was merge those two databases so that they could have…

Peter Robinson: So suddenly they have tens of millions of people, they know the browsing habits on the web of tens of millions of people but, so far, those people are only coded by cookies.

Karen Coyle: Right.

Peter Robinson: They buy the catalogue information company and they can now match my…

Deborah Pierce: …offline…

Peter Robinson: …detailed browsing habits on the web with my name, my address and so forth, put the two together, and they know everything about me, more than the government, more than credit card companies, right?

Deborah Pierce: Well, you know, it's different information. I mean, it's shopping information versus, you know, your tax information versus your arrest record. But still it's a very large amount of personal information that you-you, as an individual, do not know that they're gathering about you and using.

Peter Robinson: Okay, Glee, I have now recovered from the mention of erectile dysfunction. And I've recovered enough to think clearly about it, which is that what she has mentioned is terribly embarrassing, having somebody standing over my shoulder or somebody on the other side of the computer knowing that I'm looking up information on erectile dysfunction. But embarrassment never killed anybody. In other words…

Glee Harrah Cady: Well neither does…

Peter Robinson: …what's the worst. Give me the worst that can happen.

Glee Harrah Cady: …neither did-neither did showing an ad to you but let's say that what you were doing was investigating a condition, a medical condition, and there were assumptions made that you or someone in your family had this condition and you know that medical insurance in this country is tied to employment. Okay, so now we've gone to surfing the web to insurance to employment. So you think that well maybe this job that I have now isn't the world's greatest thing. I'll go and do something else and I'm interviewing with a company that does background checks and the background check turns up that I might not be insurable or I might be expensively insurable and that might affect my ability to get a job.

Peter Robinson: Okay so we're now…

Peter Robinson: All of our guests agree that Internet privacy is a problem so what should we do about it?

Title: Dot Com All Ye Faithful

Peter Robinson: I'd like, if we could, to explore three-the three large categories of ways of handling privacy on the Internet. Let the consumer worry about it. Let the industry itself worry about it. Let the federal government regulate, pass laws about it. And letting the consumer worry about it happens to be the way you make your income, do you not? That is to-tell us about your company.

Glee Harrah Cady: Privada makes a privacy management system called Privada Control that's available, downloadable from the web or from us. And what we do is provide, bi-directional anonymous email. Okay, so I can send you a note and you can send it back to me and you wouldn't know who I was or it provides a way to cloak what you're doing while you're on the web. In other words, we make you look as if you were us.

Peter Robinson: So it-it is a piece of technology that I can purchase if I'm especially worried about internet privacy that lets me go whipping around the web anywhere I want to and nobody can trace that whipping around back to me personally.

Glee Harrah Cady: Back to you personally.

Peter Robinson: What's it cost, if I may ask?

Glee Harrah Cady: It costs-well it-Privada provides it. It costs five dollars a month that you use your anonymous ID.

Peter Robinson: Right.

Glee Harrah Cady: And that's it.

Peter Robinson: Okay. Five bucks a month.

Glee Harrah Cady: Five bucks a month.

Peter Robinson: Problem solved, right Deborah?

Deborah Pierce: It's only one piece. I think we-we have to get consumers to be aware that they need to protect their privacy so there's a whole lot…

Peter Robinson: But can't you trust Privada control to alert consumers to the privacy problem? That is to say, they have a financial interest in making people concerned enough about it to pony up five bucks a month for their product.

Deborah Pierce: Privada, I mean, all of these companies have something to offer to protect privacy. I have no problem with this at all.

Peter Robinson: But you're worried about the consumer who's a dupe…

Deborah Pierce: Yes.

Peter Robinson: …who is not bright enough, concerned enough, interested enough, not aware that information is being collected about him?

Deborah Pierce: Right. And we need to educate them. I mean, I think we need a whole, you know, consumer…

Peter Robinson: The market-you-you're really convinced that the market doesn't have an adequate incentive to educate consumers?

Deborah Pierce: Yes I'm-I'm convinced of that.

Peter Robinson: Okay. Karen, you-what's wrong with Privada control? Not what's wrong-what's inadequate-what's inadequate about Privada control as a solution to privacy problems on the Internet?

Karen Coyle: What I see as being an issue with it is that using a program of this type is like putting on a mask for a carnival. That it protects you, it gives you privacy in that one instance but it doesn't do anything to change the underlying problem. And the underlying problem is that we do not have a general base of guaranteed privacy.

Peter Robinson: It still would seem to me that if the consumer wants privacy, he can pay five bucks a month to get it.

Karen Coyle: Well first you have to get that information out to them and I think that most people don't even know those privacy companies exist. It's another step and one of the things that we know about computer users is that they tend to take only those exact steps that are absolutely necessary in order to achieve what they want to achieve.

Glee Harrah Cady: And no one reads directions.

Karen Coyle: And even though there are pri-and no one reads directions.

Peter Robinson: No.

Karen Coyle: Even though there are some privacy functions in, for example, your web browser, most users never make any changes to the options in their web browsers.

Peter Robinson: I plead guilty to that. I've given every but Glee, let me ask you about your own product. Is this kind of privacy software, so far as you're concerned, all the answer to privacy on the Internet?

Glee Harrah Cady: No, no I don't-I don't think so. We-we think of it as-as the traditional triangle of stability. In other words, you need intelligent, educated, empowered users, all right, of which we're one part. You need responsible businesses. All right. And you need some kind of an environment in which everybody understands what the rules are. Now one piece of that environment could be law. And, in other countries, it is law. In Canada…

Peter Robinson: But you don't really need it do you?

Glee Harrah Cady: …it is law.

Peter Robinson: If everybody pays you five bucks a month, who-who needs a law passed?

Glee Harrah Cady: First of all, you know perfectly well that not everybody is going to pay us five bucks a month.

Peter Robinson: You and other com-what-what percentage of browsers or you guys-has your industry captured?

Glee Harrah Cady: Oh, very small percentage.

Peter Robinson: A percent, two percent?

Glee Harrah Cady: Wouldn't even give it a-I know-I doubt that it's…

Peter Robinson: Decimal point?

Glee Harrah Cady: …I don't even think that it's measurable.

Peter Robinson: Okay. Well let's speak to Deborah…

Peter Robinson: Next question: can the Internet industry solve the privacy problem by itself?

Title: Peeping Coms

Peter Robinson: June, this past spring, number of large internet companies or technology companies, including America Online, Microsoft, IBM, others, announced technology that would alert computer users before they visited web sites that collect more information than they, the computer users, are willing to share. This new standard is called "Platform for Privacy Preferences" or in the usual techno cutiness, P3P. P3P, industry came up with it on its own. That's your solution right, Deborah?

Deborah Pierce: It's a part of a solution and it's a way that allow-still allows information to be collected about people…

Peter Robinson: But with their full knowledge now?

Deborah Pierce: Well we still don't know exactly how they're going to be using that information.

Peter Robinson: Oh so you're sus-you're suspicious that it isn't actually…

Deborah Pierce: I'm suspicious.

Peter Robinson: …quite as good as it sounds.

Deborah Pierce: Right.

Peter Robinson: It's not a principled objection. If the industry could regulate itself and come up with standards that protected privacy, you'd be on-that would be okay with you?

Deborah Pierce: I would be-I would be in favor of it.

Peter Robinson: There's no principled objection. You just doubt that, in practice, they'll do so.

Deborah Pierce: Yeah, I mean, I think anytime you, you know, you've got this-this great business incentive to collect all this information and use this information, I think…

Peter Robinson: It's just irresistible?

Deborah Pierce: Exactly.

Peter Robinson: They can't, their fingers start twitching. Karen, what's wrong with P3P?

Karen Coyle: There are a lot of things that are wrong with P3P. One of them is that it was developed by industry and not by public interest folks. And so what it does is it facilitates the collection of people's personal information. And it-it has quite a few problems with it. One of them is, for example, the fact that the act of trust between two people or between people in a company is something that I don't believe that you can put into an algorithm and yet what P3P does is it attempts to put this into an algorithm. For example, it has like four or five categories of reasons why, how your information will be used. And one of those categories says, your information will be used for research and development. And it turns out that that actually is the code for, your information will be used for marketing purposes and product development purposes.

Peter Robinson: Oh, so those little rats…

Karen Coyle: So how this is presented to the user could make a great deal of difference in what the user understands as really happening. And it's a very complex protocol. It's called a protocol because it's a set of rules.

Peter Robinson: And-and how would it work? First time I sat down at my computer, a screen would come up and ask me several questions about how much information I was willing to give away about myself?

Karen Coyle: You would fill in your privacy preferences and you would also fill in your information like your name and your address and your credit card number and then as…

Peter Robinson: So I've already given them everything?

Karen Coyle: Well you haven't given anyone anything yet because it's-it's going in your browser which is sitting on your computer.

Peter Robinson: Oh I see.

Karen Coyle: So you've got it on your computer. And then, as you go to web sites, they would be presenting to you their privacy practices. This would be matched up with what you have keyed in, in P3P.

Peter Robinson: Right.

Karen Coyle: And…

Peter Robinson: So I don't have to read these long, legal documents on the web…

Karen Coyle: Exactly.

Peter Robinson: …detailing their privacy practices. The computer will see whether they match.

Karen Coyle: …and…

Peter Robinson: And if they don't match, a window will come up saying, do you want to proceed?

Karen Coyle: Most likely. Yes.

Peter Robinson: Something like that?

Karen Coyle: So the-so the idea being that you would be given a choice. But, of course, if you say, no I don't want to proceed, what happens? Probably you don't get access to that website.

Peter Robinson: Right. But that's all right…

Karen Coyle: So your incentive…

Peter Robinson: …isn't it?

Karen Coyle: Well, is it? I mean, if that's the only place where you can get the information you need, are-are you being coerced into giving your personal information?

Peter Robinson: Are you making the point which gets made these days that the internet is somehow-should be viewed almost as public property? You know, that it's a kind of semi…

Karen Coyle: You know, I think of it…

Peter Robinson: …public domain?

Karen Coyle: …I think of it as being display windows. As I'm walking down the street, the stores have put out these very tempting display windows for me to look at.

Peter Robinson: Right.

Karen Coyle: On the Internet, I find out that after I've looked, that they have…

Peter Robinson: They've been taking pictures of you…

Karen Coyle: …taken pictures-pictures of me and are keeping this information and they say, this is a valid exchange. And I say, wait a minute. I didn't make any deal with you about giving up my personal information to look in your windows. You made these windows very tempting.

Peter Robinson: Okay. And it is for that reason, because human beings are built the way they are and they can't resist certain kinds of really gorgeous temptations, that you can't let the industry-you can't trust the industry to regulate itself.

Karen Coyle: As Deborah said, it has an incentive to regulate itself in its own favor.

Peter Robinson: Okay. That all goes fine with you? You don't trust industry to regulate itself?

Glee Harrah Cady: You're not going to get me to say that.

Peter Robinson: Well…

Glee Harrah Cady: I'm an industry person.

Peter Robinson: Okay, okay. Give us the PR stuff quickly and then we'll try to get-dig through it.

Glee Harrah Cady: P3P is-is a notification mechanism. It's one part of a privacy solution. The rest of the parts are security, okay, and some sort of privatization system.

Peter Robinson: A company like yours has no objection to, in fact, you'd welcome some industry standards, is that right?

Glee Harrah Cady: Well standardization helps…

Peter Robinson: So it clears up the situation…

Glee Harrah Cady: …everybody, all right, because it helps people understand what it is they're looking at. And so the-the point that Karen's making is true but in the defense of P3P, I'd say that what they're trying to do is simplify the vast range of things that can happen in information gathering so that you can tell by looking maybe at a color in the size of your browser that this is a yellow site, you know, it-we would issue cautions for what you've said you prefer versus what this company is doing. It doesn't fit like this. It fits more like this.

Peter Robinson: So reasonable as far as it goes but you can't rely on it as far as a universal solution to the problem.

Glee Harrah Cady: No, it's only a notification mechanism.

Peter Robinson: If industry self regulation can only solve part of the problem, what about government regulation?

Title: Someone to Watch Over Me

Peter Robinson: We now come to Uncle Sam and the notion that the federal government should create a legal right to privacy on the Internet. I begin with Deborah as a representative of the Electronic Frontier Foundation which is, as I understand it, by and large, a very libertarian outfit so I'm just astonished to hear you saying, get the government into the web.

Deborah Pierce: Well when I say that, I don't mean that we should have very heavy-handed legislation. What I'm-where I'm coming from is we've-we've always taken a hands-off approach but, over the years, we've seen that companies are not implementing privacy statements on their web pages and that those that do are only implementing maybe one or two of the pieces of fair information practices. So now when I say, you know, we-we're favoring legislation, I'm thinking about just codify fair information practices so that people at least know, you know, okay, here's what you're collecting about me, here's how you're using the information and I have access to it. I can correct it if there's something wrong with what you've collected about me.

Peter Robinson: You-you'd go with that as well?

Karen Coyle: Yes, I think that would be a very good idea.

Peter Robinson: And you as well?

Glee Harrah Cady: Well, wh-where we're frightened by-any kinds of regulation…

Peter Robinson: Ah, good, somebody…

Glee Harrah Cady: …well you want me to…be frightened right?

Peter Robinson: Somebody-well I want you to…

Glee Harrah Cady: …where we're frightened by it is-is if such regulation is not technology neutral. Senators Hatch and Schumer have a-a wide ranging bill dealing with…

Peter Robinson: Interesting to begin with. Hatch, a conservative from Utah, Schumer, a liberal from New York.

Glee Harrah Cady: Absolutely. And-and they have this wide ranging bill that deals with cyber terrorism and security and oh, by the way, we've thrown in some privacy.

Peter Robinson: So you've got a kind of a shopping cart of…

Glee Harrah Cady: …but just-let's just take this one…

Peter Robinson: …Internet legislation…

Glee Harrah Cady: …little part of this bill…

Peter Robinson: Okay.

Glee Harrah Cady: …which would seem to be absolutely non-controversial and that is that we should put in a law that says, yes indeedy, people should put privacy policies on their web sites. There's an assumption in that language, all right, that, if it's not a web site, you don't need the policy. All right, well we are in an environment where we're moving to phones and personal digital assistants, having access to digital information. Is that a web site?

Peter Robinson: So-so…

Glee Harrah Cady: Okay. So it's no longer technology neutral even though it's this wonderful bill…

Peter Robinson: Oh I see…

Glee Harrah Cady: …that we all, in fact, would support, that privacy policies are good and people ought to post them.

Peter Robinson: Karen, give me your ideal legislation on this.

Karen Coyle: My ideal legislation would be a very simple statement that we have a right to privacy. And it would follow something like the fair use practice. It wouldn't be privacy on the Internet because privacy on the Internet is just one…

Glee Harrah Cady: One piece…

Karen Coyle: …one piece of it, just one aspect. It's only one place where we lose our privacy.

Peter Robinson: You're not satisfied with the privacy right that Mr. Justice, William O. Douglas discovered in the penumbra of the constitution.

Karen Coyle: What we have is piecemeal privacy. We have some privacy relating to our credit records. We have some privacy relating to our video store checkouts. We don't have a general statement on which to base other privacy actions.

Peter Robinson: Do other countries? Does the European Union…

Glee Harrah Cady: Sure.

Karen Coyle: Yes, many do as a matter of fact. And the interesting thing is that if you look at countries that are younger than the United States, they have a privacy right written into their constitution.

Peter Robinson: So the founders just forgot about this. They left this out of the constitution…

Karen Coyle: Over two hundred years ago it wasn't an issue…

Peter Robinson: Last question, wouldn't federal legislation create more problems than it solves?

Title: Dangerous Surf

Peter Robinson: Federal legislation as we have just demonstrated in a mere, few minutes is complicated. It's going to lag behind the technological-it's a mess, why even bother?

Deborah Pierce: All the studies show, over eighty to ninety percent are con-are concerned about their privacy online.

Peter Robinson: Right.

Deborah Pierce: So people are aware of that. They're-but how to protect it, they don't know and they don't know about Privada, they don't know about zero knowledge.

Peter Robinson: Yeah but Privada's going to let them know.

Deborah Pierce: Well…

Karen Coyle: How is Privada going to let them know…

Peter Robinson: They'll take out ads. They'll say…

[talking at same time]

Karen Coyle: But-but wait a minute-but is Yahoo or one of these companies that is gathering information, going to want them advertising on their web site?

Peter Robinson: What do you think?

Glee Harrah Cady: Well if we're really lucky what we've done is we-we will infiltrate into Yahoo to use-to use-poor Yahoo-it's terrible that we're using them as an example here-where, in fact, Privada services can be offered to Yahoo's members. Now that's the ideal part because privacy is good business.

Peter Robinson: Okay, it's television. We now have to draw to a close I am sorry to say. Let me ask you a couple of very quick questions. 2002, about a year into the next president's term, will we or will we not have good subjective, I'll let you decide what good means, good federal legislation mandating privacy on the internet, by 2002? Karen?

Karen Coyle: I think not.

Peter Robinson: Glee?

Glee Harrah Cady: I don't think so.

Peter Robinson: Deborah?

Deborah Pierce: I think we'll have something. I don't think it'll be adequate.

Peter Robinson: You don't think it will be adequate. 2010, now this is a question about products like hers, about the industry regulating itself ten years from now in 2010. We now have eighty, ninety percent of Americans saying they're concerned about their privacy on the Internet. Ten years from now, what will poll figures say? Still eighty or ninety percent of Americans concerned about privacy on the Internet or will it have dropped because legisla-the whole thing will have gone away as an issue?

Glee Harrah Cady: The infrastructure will have built up to the point where it's not a question.

Peter Robinson: It'll be no problem.

Glee Harrah Cady: It'll-we will assume that we have protections.

Peter Robinson: Karen?

Karen Coyle: I think there will be more people that are concerned because remember I think, there's also going to be more people on the internet. And I do think there will be more people concerned about their privacy.

Peter Robinson: Deborah?

Deborah Pierce: And, as particularly as it goes as it becomes more global and we have to deal with laws like the EU directive, I think-I think, at that point, we will have privacy protection.

Peter Robinson: You think we will?

Deborah Pierce: I think we will.

Peter Robinson: Okay. All right. So we have one gloomy forecast, one quite happy forecast and one forecast of glee, Glee.

Glee Harrah Cady: Yes, thank you so much. That would be one forecast of Privada.

Peter Robinson: Glee, Karen, and Deborah, thank you very much.

Karen Coyle: Thank you.

Peter Robinson: Well, Harriet, what did you think?

Harriet (computer): Peter, you wouldn't actually consider using that privacy software, would you?

Peter Robinson: Harriet, it's either the privacy software or the digits.

Harriet (computer): No, Peter. Please don't do that.

Peter Robinson: I'm Peter Robinson. Thanks for joining us.

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