All Roads Leads To . . .? Barry Strauss on Ancient Rome, Modern Warfare

- A funny thing happened on the way to the form. Well, not so funny if you're Julius Caesar coming up next on an odds of March edition of Matters of Policy and Politics. A Hoover Institution scholar and expert on ancient Rome separates fact from fiction with regard to the events of March 15th, 44 BC and how the Roman way of doing things, especially vanishing foes, compares to how the American Republic goes about its business in dealing with foreign adversaries. Stay tuned for a conversation about past and present. It's Tuesday, March 10th, 2026, near listening to matters of Policy and Politics. A podcast devoted to the discussion of Hoover Institution, policy, research, and issues of local, national and geopolitical concern. I'm Bill Whalen. I'm the Hoover Institution's, Virginia Hobbs Carpenter distinguished policy fellow in journalism. I'm not the only Hoover fellow who's podcasting these days. You should check out what we have to offer. You can find that at hoover.org/podcast. We have all kinds of great stuff for you, including the audio version of the Good Fellow Show that had the great honor of hosting, along with Neil Ferguson, John Cochran, and h HR McMaster. Now, by the time you're listening to this, check your phone, check your calendar. It may be March 15th. If so, beware the eyes of March or so. William Shakespeare, what have you believe is Suit Sarah supposedly told Julius Caesar. It's with the eyes of March in mind, and with the help from a Hoover scholar who's written extensively about ancient Rome that we're gonna look back at what happened to Caesar in 44 bc separating fact from fiction and how the Roman way of doing things, wielding power of anguishing enemies relates to these complicated times. It's my honor to welcome to the podcast my colleague Barry Strauss. Barry is the Hoover Institution's cordless page dean, senior fellow, and a military naval historian with a focus on ancient Greece and Rome and their lessons for today. In 2025, he received the Bradley Prize honoring his study in teaching a western civilization in classical military history, passion, evident. If you read his most recent book that is called Jews versus Rome, two Centuries of Rebellion Against the World's Mightiest People. Barry, welcome to the podcast, Dan. I feel like taking my right fist and pounding my chest and saying strength and utter, but you know what? That would just tell you that I've been watching too much Gladiator.

- Yes, thank you, bill. It's great to be here.

- You know, it's funny, speaking of Gladiator, it's one of those films I have a hard time resisting when it pops up on tv. I have to watch 10, 20, 30 minutes of it at least. It's like The Godfather for me and a few other movies. But when you look at a Barry, it's one of those films that falls into a genre with which Hollywood has a fascination and, you know, organized crime superheroes and yes, ancient Rome. It's funny, Barry, I was going back through IMDB and looking up various Roman related movies like 1954, Barry. There's a movie called The Silver Chalice. It's notable why it's the first film featuring Paul Newman. Wow. Paul Newman. Wow. Paul Newman playing of all things. A Greek artist commissioned a cast, a cup of Jesus and silver, and he wind up in Rome. Interesting tribute bit by the way. The first person offered that movie was James Dean. Gotcha. Rebel without a toga.

- Rebel without a toga. There you go.

- You know, silver Cello 1954, Barry. That's a year after Marlon Brandau plays Mark Anthony. Yes, yes. In the film adaptation of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. You could hear him right now. I'm gonna make Avian an offer he can't refuse. I'm sorry, that's a bad Brando, but, but there he is chewing up chewing obs scenery as Mark an Anthony and boy began chewing scenery A decade later, Richard Burton playing Anthony in the spectacle that is Cleopatra. So again, we're back into Rome. Yes. More recently, Barry, I mentioned Gladiator that came out in 2000 Y 2K. There's HBO's Rome, which came out in 2005. That was, I think 22 episodes over two seasons, and we could spend the rest of this podcast going through all the movies. Benhur Quois. Yes. Spartacists, Kula Baras. The list goes on. Barry, why the fascination with Rome

- Americans have always been fascinated with Rome. It goes back to the founding of the Republic when the, the framers of the Constitution saw themselves as the heirs of Rome. And they thought that the Constitution was modeled in the Roman political system as they saw it, which involved the separation of powers, the famous three branches of the government in the American case, legislative, executive, and judicial. And even earlier in the Declaration, the Declaration of Independence is in many ways a document deeply influenced by Rome or how Rome was remembered because again and again in the declaration they called George III a tyrant. And this is very important for them because they believe that one of the legacies of the Romans and the Greeks was to slay tyrants and to replace tyranny with liberty. That's what they thought they were doing. George Washington's favorite play was a play called Cato. This had been written by Addison early in the 18th century, and it is a highly idealized account of the, the heroic suicide of Marcus Portus Cato, the younger in in the res in his resistance against Julius Caesar. And what was thought to be, you know, the defense of liberty proposition to tyranny. It's why there's a place institution called Take Cato Institute in Washington, DC nowadays. So Rome's always been there. They modeled the new capital, new capital city on Rome. The capital is meant to look like a Roman city, starting with a capitol, which was the, the center of ancient Rome. That's, that's where the Congress meets and the Capitol and many of the buildings of Washington, the Supreme Court, the White House, et cetera and so forth, are, are vaguely Roman in their style with their columns. So big, big influence on Americans. Also Shakespeare, the tragedy of Julius Caesar. This is a no small cultural artifact in American history. Americans embraced this play

- Right

- Like no other. And until very, very recently, it was absolutely obligatory to read Julius Caesar for young Americans growing up. I hope you read it in high school. I certainly did. And maybe junior high school actually. But it was thought that this is the American story. We are the new Romans, preferably the Roman Republic. But Jefferson managed to square the circle and say we could be both the republic and the empire because America would be quote, an empire of liberty.

- Right? And don't forget John Wilkes Booth, who I think played, didn't he played Brutus in the play and he did, took it a little too seriously. Perhaps

- He took it a little too seriously. Yes, yes. And of course I issues utters and a Latin tag after assassinating Abraham Lincoln, the model of the state of Virginia Sikh seni. So, and also Patrick Henry, the famous statement that he may or may not have said, give me liberty or give me death, is a paraphrase of what plu tar says that Brutus said in opposing Caesar. So deep in the American psyche is ancient Rome.

- Alright, so Shakespeare gives us two famous lines that stick to this day. One of course Tu brute, which Shakespeare claims Caesar said when he was delivered the death blow. Right? And the other one, the monologue by Mark, an which begins friends Romans countryman. Let's, let me throw a few things at you, Barry. Let's call it factor fiction at Reddy March 15th, 44 bc. So fact of fiction, question number one, Barry, did Caesar have it coming to him?

- Did Caesar have it coming to him? No, he didn't have it coming to him, but he had really pushed things to the limit. He had fought a civil war against the republic on the grounds that the republic wasn't merely trying to Senate, wasn't merely trying to strip him of his office, but also was denying the rights of the Roman people by not allowing the Tribunes with a part of the Roman government who represented the ordinary people not allowing them to exercise their customary veto. And then Caesar defeated all the forces of the Roman Republic over the course of a civil war that lasted four years. At the end of that, he made himself, he allowed himself to be given the title dictator in perpetual dictating perpetual in effect, dictator for life. So did he have it coming? Well, I said, no, he didn't have it coming. I'm not a big fan of political assassination, but it would've been nice if the Romans could have had a nonviolent way to strip Caesar of this title and say, the republic is not going to be reduced to a dictatorship.

- Alright. Barry fact or fiction Caesar was unpopular among the Roman people at the time of his death.

- Caesar was largely popular because he was the ancient equivalent of a populist, the popularist, which is what he was called, not exactly the same as a populist, but a politician who looked after the interests of the common people, the poor, and expected to have their support in return. However, in the last year of his life, Caesar had done some things that were deeply unpopular. He basically made it clear that elections were over in Rome, and that from now on the top people would be appointed by him. That was not pleasing to the Roman people who enjoyed the elections for all sorts of reasons, gave them power. Also, there was a lot of, what do they call it now? Walking around money distributed to voters who'd want to vote for you. There were a series of incidents in Rome in the winter of 44 BC Caesar was offered the crown as Shakespeare has it in antiquity, would've been a ribbon of royalty. And he ostentatiously rejected it. But the very fact that it had been offered since a shiver up the spine of many Romans, because the, the, the dirtiest word in the Roman political vocabulary was Rex King, right? Monarchy was considered to be the ultimate antithesis of the Roman republic. The republic had been founded centuries earlier when the Romans had driven out the kings. They driven out, they drove out their last king. So the fact that Caesar flirty without made him unpopular, the fact that he had refused, neglected to stand for a series of senators when they came to visit him. The fact that he was building a new forum, which he modestly named after himself, the forum of Caesar, the fact that he had a mistress who was ensconced in his house, his villa across the Tiber River, Caesar's Villa, or if you will, Caesar's Palace. And she was the mother of this illegitimate child who may have been with her in Rome at the time. Not sure, but this was no ordinary mistress. This was the most famous and controversial woman in the world. Cleopatra queen of Egypt,

- Right?

- So here is this guy who's supposed to be just another Roman, a roman noble to be sure who has a child by the, the most powerful queen in the world. Who does he? He is, he, he looks like a king. He looks like someone who aspires to monarchy to many people. And that was utterly unacceptable, even to ordinary Romans. It was unacceptable,

- Alright, fact fiction Barry, he really said, Attu brute

- Total fiction. So Attu brute was invented in the Renaissance. What did Caesar say? Well, as, as senators mobbed him and started to sa stab him. Well, the ancient sources say that he just groaned however they admit. There's a rumor that he said something and what he said, he said in Greek, not Latin, but he said in Greek is Kai teon, which means you two child. And if he did say that, it is one of the wittiest puns in history, especially in a partisan is about to be, he's in the process of being murdered, right? He says it's a Brutus. And the reason it's, it's a, a witty biting, dark pun, is that the rumor was that Brutus was none other than Caesar's illegitimate son. And the reason for that rumor is that the greatest love of Caesar's life was Brutus mother Ceilia. Now, at the time of Brutus iss birth Ceilia was married to someone else, and Caesar was 15 years old. The odds that he was having an affair with ceilia are, are, are, are slim. However, they're not impossible because the Romans started young. So there is this rumor that hangs over Brutus all his life. And what Caesar might be saying, if he really said, Kai Sue Tekon, you too child, is, hey, you just murdered your father. Have a nice day.

- Dr. Fiction Barry, mark Antony really said, friends, Romans countrymen lend me your ears. I come to Barry Caesar not to praise him. And let me follow up another fact or fiction. Was there a public funeral for Caesar? And did Anthony speak at it?

- Okay, let's take the second one first.

- Okay? - Yes, there was a public funeral for Caesar and Anthony spoke at it. And yes, as Shakespeare says, this was a turning point in the fortunes of the assassins. Before then they'd been granted amnesty. They were in Rome, it looked like they might get away with it. But this Anthony's speech at the funeral leads to a riot, which forces the assassins to flee Rome. And that goes on to lead to a civil war. However, the speech, the beautiful speech that Shakespeare has Anthony give as an invention by, by the bard. What did Anthony really do? What he really did is kind of amazing. First of all, it was a combination of a pep rally with him crying out things in the crowd responding. And secondly, well, I don't know what I would call it, but there was a wax model of Caesar rotating. It was on a wheel so that it would rotate. And it showed the wounds, the 23 stab wounds that Caesar had on the, that was given by the assassins. And as Anthony spoke, the, this, this dummy of Caesar, the wax dummy, would turn around and around so the crowd would see his wounds. And Anthony recited all the things that Caesar had done on behalf of the Roman people. And so this stirred up the crowd, which, you know, erupted in a riot because of what Anthony did. But he didn't give the eloquent speech that Caesar has him give, excuse me, by the way that Shakespeare has him give.

- By the way, Barry, anytime I see Mark Edy betrayed on big screen, small screen, it's always the same character. He is alpha lusty and just kind of a man's man.

- Yes, that's correct. That's all, all the ancient sources tell us. That's that's what he was like.

- Okay. One more fact fiction for you. Ultimately Caesar's murder doesn't really matter, Barry, because Octavian ends up becoming Caesar Augustus 17 years later.

- Yeah, yeah. Well, it doesn't save the republic. It doesn't save the republic. It, it ends up leading to a dictatorship of a different sort. It wasn't called dictator. 'cause the Romans abolished the title of dictator after Caesar's assassination. It's actually Antony who moves the motion in the Senate to abolish the title of dictator. But Octavian Caesar's great nephew, who is and his adopted son inherits the mantle. And after defeating all of his enemies in a very brutal and violent civil war, he becomes the new Caesar. He takes the name Caesar, we call him Octavian. His official name was Gais Julius Caesar Octavius. But he insisted that everybody called him Caesar. And once he defeats everyone and becomes the sole ruler of the Roman world, he's given the honorary title of Augustus, which means the revered one, the reverend, if you will.

- Right? Alright. And finally, very a counterfactual. If Caesar had stayed home that day, what happens to him and what happens to the republic? I would note Caesar was, what, 55 years old, I believe at the time of his murder, he was I think three days away from planning an expedition. He's gonna head off to Parthi, I believe. Right? He was setting his sights on, ironically, we're gonna talk about this in a minute, Iran, he was looking

- Yes, on Iran, the

- Silk Road. So what happens to Roman history if Caesar does not go to the form?

- It's a great question. Of course, we don't know. There are a couple of factors, a couple of ways suspended. One's that Caesar wasn't in the greatest of health. He had either epilepsy or perhaps more likely a series of mini strokes. And what the long-term prognosis for his health was, we know, but probably he wasn't going to live out a normal term of years because of his 'cause of his illness. However, if he'd gone east and been successful or successful enough to be able to call it a victory and come back to Rome, he would have been more powerful than ever. And his position as dictator for life would have been, would've been assured. I don't think he would've given up on the republic as much as Octavian eventually does, simply because Octavian was a young guy. He wasn't really part of the system. Caesar was a Roman Patricia. His blood was as blue as blue blood could be, and he'd grown up in the system. He was part of it. So I think Caesar would've given the Senate a bigger role if he, if he'd stuck around and he wouldn't have abolished the normal o offices the way that, the way that Octavian Octavian did. But it wouldn't have been good in any case, for the long-term health of the Roman Republic. Now, if Caesar had died in the east, if he died fighting against part there or died, you know, of his illness, then I think we see another civil war. I think that everything develops into civil war.

- Let's talk about warfare past and present. But first, let's do a couple minutes on the obligatory Trump Caesar comparisons per, so here are three angles for you to consider Barry. One, I would argue you're talking about two gentlemen who are arrogant, if you will, although I'm curious if Julius Caesar would be on Fox News, like Trump is selling watches right now, for example, I would argue both have a sense of indestructibility, if you will. Caesar survived wars, foreign and civil. Donald Trump, my God, Donald Trump has survived law two impeachments, one election defeat, two assassination attempts. So both must have felt their bulletproof, not knife proof, but bulletproof at least. And then thirdly, bearing legacy, the trium for it builds a temple of defi. Julius Trump's gonna get a presidential library in Miami that's gonna look like something of a temple, I think by the time it's done. So are there parallels between the two men?

- Yes. But first of all, let's, let's take a step back and say that virtually every American president has been accused of being a new Caesar,

- Right?

- Comes with the territory again and again. Even President Obama was accused of being a new Caesar. So if people compare Trump to Caesar, it's not a surprise. It's,

- And, and that's a function of going around Congress.

- It's a function of going around. Congress is also the fact that in a way the American president is an elected king for a period of time. The American president, especially, you know, in our age, in the, in the age when the American military is the world's strongest, has enormous power. And he has a lot of leeway to do things without support of Congress, although he consults Congress, but on, not in any official manner. So yes, it's, it's, it's a common trope. That being said, yes, Trump is a very powerful figure. Like Julius Caesar and like a number of great men or very powerful men and women in history, he has a sense of his own destiny. He has a sense of his own indestructibility, or rather, I would say in both cases, a willingness to take risks. Caesar was a very big risk taker, a strategic risk taker to be sure. But a risk taker. Trump also takes risks. He's really throwing the dice in in Iran now. So they have that in common. Neither one suffered from a lack of self-esteem, shall we say. But there are a number of differences. Caesar was a member of the nobility, the oldest part of the Roman nobility. He was a Patricia Trump is not a Patricia, not a member of any kind of American aristocracy. Caesar would've had contempt for con commercial undertakings. It's not what he does. He is a military man. He's a politician. They're both great communicators of a sort. But Caesar was eloquent in an old fashioned classical manner, and Trump is not, although he Trump seems to have an uncanny ability to put his finger on the pulse of the American people and to come up with marketable slogans like America. America Great again, and America first. Caesar was a great general as well as great politician. Trump is clearly has no military background whatsoever. Both of them had campaign books Trump the Art of the Deal, Caesar the Gallic Wars. But the difference is that Caesar wrote his own book. Trump, I'm sure had a ghost writer. And Art of the War is no doubt an interesting book, but it's not gonna be a classic for all time. Caesar's Gallic War and his Civil War are still utter classics. We still consider them classics today, 2000 years later. And Caesar wrote other books as well. They haven't survived. He also wrote poetry, which hasn't survived. He was quite a literary talent and Trump a bit different.

- Let's talk about wars. Barry Wars in the past and wars today. Rome believed in great war competition. Excuse me, great power competition. Yes, Rome, Carthage comes to mind,

- Yes.

- But you're gonna tell me that Rome also believed in preventive war. And I wanna talk about this because if you look at what the United States is doing right now in Iran, as it did in the previous decade in Iraq, we would call those preventive wars trying to stop a country from doing something much worse. Why did Rome believe in prevent war?

- Rome had a long history going back to the beginning of scouring the horizon and looking at potential threats and neutralizing them. Rome did not feel safe when any threat was on its border. Also, Roman ethos was the way that you have a successful political career is having successful military career. Most ambitious Roman men wanted to succeed in the military, and they wanted to succeed at war. War was much more profitable undertaking then than it is now. Nowadays, it's very difficult for an individual surge soldier to get rich from the booty or the loot of the battlefield. But it was different in antiquity. So the Romans felt threatened. Their horizon constantly expands because as they expand in Italy, they get new allies and those allies have neighbors, and the neighbors can be threatening to that ally. And if Rome wants to keep the ally, it has to show that it can protect the ally. Furthermore, there's a lot of places to loot. In the ancient world, there's just an enormous amount of wealth out there. And either you loot material things or you tax the places that you conquer. But in either case, it's extremely lucrative, right?

- So, so what you, what you see right now in the Persian Gulf berry is a superpower fighting a regional power. The United States, the superpower around the regional power. Give me an example of Rome. A superpower at the time fighting a regional power at the time,

- A superpower fighting a regional power. Well, the Romans fought myth ies, who was the king of Pontus, which is in what is now Northern Turkey. And they considered him to be, he was a rebel against Rome. They considered him to be a threat to their, their empire, which he was. And so they were involved in a long war to finally defeat him. There are many examples, the Romans under Caesar conquer, Gaul GA's, not a superpower. Gaul is a series of small regional powers, and yet the Romans conquer ga in part because the Gauls had historically been a threat to the Romans. And in part because Caesar wanted the glory of adding to the, the imperium, the empire we would say of the Roman people. So it's pretty common for the Romans to fight regional powers.

- And how did the Romans so causes bell eye to the people? Barry, this is one of the challenges you see with Iran right now. The Trump administration, they keep offering different justifications for doing this. It's, it's Iran's nuclear ambitions. It's Iran's ballistic missile program. It's 47 years of inflicting terror upon the world,

- Right?

- These are all legitimate reasons, by the way, I think. Or at least all you know. And together the code all be, but you need at the end of the day, kind of one simple and explanations why you're doing this. Did so how did the Romans sell wars to their people? Was it, was it the idea of Roman greatness or did they get into the geopolitics? How did they do it?

- It's a great question. So the Romans believed that it was illegal for them to fight an aggressive war. They could only fight defensive wars. And you might say, oh, that's a nice trick. You acquire an em, you conquer an empire, but you only fight defensive wars. They had a special group of priests who were called the Fetis. And the job of the Fetis was to determine and to, what shall I say, to give the seal of approval to the fact that the other side was the aggressor and Rome was defending itself. And lo and behold, they always did. They always said the other side was the aggressor. And Rome was defending itself. Nonetheless, it wasn't always easy to convince the Romans to do this. And the, the most famous example of a preventive war is the Roman attack on Carthage in the third Punic war. This is also an attack on a regional power. Carthage, having been defeated by Rome in the first and second Punic wars was now itself kind of puny, if you'll forgive the pun. It was essentially Tunisia, what is today, Tunisia. And it was a wealthy trading state, but it was really no threat to Rome, at least not in the foreseeable future. Nonetheless, a Roman politician named Cato, the elder Marcus POIs Cato, was convinced that ro, that Carthage was a threat to Rome and could not be allowed to grow stronger and stronger and stronger after its defeat in the second Punic war. And whenever he would speak in the Senate, he would famously end his speech by saying, Delinda s Cartago, Carthage must be destroyed. Even if the guy was talking about olive trees and grapevines, he'd end up by saying, Del es cartago, Carthage must be destroyed. And he got his way. The Romans did go to war against Carthage. It took them three years. It wasn't an easy campaign, but in the end they destroyed it.

- Right. So they're not going for regime alteration or regime change?

- No. They offered the Carthaginians the chance to leave their city and to move inland and become an agricultural people, a pastoral people, if you will. But the Carthaginians declined and they fought it out in, in the end they, in the end they lost.

- Are there any episodes in history, Barry, of where the Romans do something similar to this in terms of warfare, what's called the Viking approach, where you go in, you fight a country and then you leave?

- Sure. I mean, when the Romans defeated the king, Philip the fifth of Macedon in, I guess it was 1 97, the Battle of Pinna. They defeated him and they made Macedon subordinate to Rome. And they said, well, that's the end of that problem, except his successor, a guy named Perseus wanted to rebuild MAs anon and fight Rome again. So the Romans were forced to go back and defeat Perseus in, I forget the name of the battle. Yeah, the first battle was called the Battle of Celi. The second battle, which was in the one sixties, was called the Battle of Pinna. And the Romans thought, well, we're done. We don't have to worry about an Macon in Greece anymore. And then the Greeks rebel against the Romans around the same time as the Romans make war on Carthage, they start a second war against the Greeks and defeat them, destroy their capital. City of Corinth, the same year that destroyed Carthage in 1 46 bc. So that was an attempt by the Romans to say, look, we really don't want to get involved. We've made our point. We're gonna go away. Don't start it again. But they do start it again twice again. So the Romans find themselves dragged in.

- Let's talk alliances for a minute. Yeah. In modern times, the United States has Israel by its side in the Middle East, and we have the special relationship with Britain and we have nato. So we have Constance when it comes to our hatred overseas. You referenced earlier that Rome had formal alliances and lists formal friendships.

- Yes.

- Was there any kind of consistent robin to their Batman back in the day? 1, 1, 1 country, they could always count on to side with them.

- Well, in the early days, as the Rome was expanding from in throughout Italy, like Rome starts out as a small city state in Central Italy. And little by little it expands throughout the Italian peninsula. The Romans could always count on the states of Central Italy, particularly the ones in the area of central Italy called LA or Lao and Italian. These are people who speak the same language as the Romans. They're Latins, they have the same religious festivals. They consider themselves kins, kinsman of the Romans. They are rock solid allies of Rome. Rome had used carrots and sticks to tie them to Rome. So they are really the Batman to Romans Robin, when Hannibal invades Italy defeats the Romans in battle after battle. And all of northern Italy and most of southern Italy defect against Rome. These cities of Central Italy of Leham and Ria, Tuscany, la Leham and Tuscany, they remain loyal to Rome. Those are very reliable allies.

- Alright, two more questions here, Barry. One in this war we have seen with, with Iran, we have seen decapitation right

- From the very

- Beginning. Israel goes in first and what does it do? It takes out the supreme leader and about 40 of his minions and an airstrike,

- Right?

- Granted, Rome did not have air power back and then did have any technology today. But was decapitation ever part of the Roman strategy, Barry, or did they, did they, or was that considered not cricket, if you will, back in the day, to, to kill the leader of the other power?

- Oh no, it was definitely part of the Roman strategy. They used decapitation twice in Spain. First against, oh, actually first against a rebel in Lucita. That is to say Portugal, right? They had him assassinated. His name was ti. He's a national hero of Portugal today. And secondly, against a Roman who had gone off to Spain and created an independent empire and protest against the oligarchs who had taken over the Roman Republic. His name was Sartorius. And the Romans also hire assassins to murder him. And in both cases, the Deta decapitation strategy was successful. So the Romans would go in for decapitation. They first tried to defeat them both militarily by conventional means, which frankly was more macho and more appealing to the Romans. But they failed, they couldn't do so. So they, they accepted second best assassination. And of course, the assassination of Julius Caesar is a decapitation.

- Okay. And then finally, Barry, the idea of an end zone dance. That's something we don't do in America. So back July 9th, 1991, there was a national victory celebration of Washington dc This was to celebrate the triumph in the Gulf War. And it was, you know, something very different. I went to it actually, because we had not had an honest to goodness military parade in the nation's capitol a long time. And some people right? Some people thought it was wonderful, some people were horrified by it. But we don't do end zone dances at the end of military well as compared to Rome. So I would dare say that if Rome were involved here, they would probably be bringing back Iranians and chains and they would just be yes to a spec. But we don't do that, do we?

- No, we don't. We have movies. So,

- So why did, why did the Romans do it, Barry?

- Because they were a very milit, great question. They were a very militaristic people, And they wanted to educate young Romans to think it's a good thing to make war. And we don't just make war for nothing. We bring back the loot because they would have the enemy leader on parade. They, they were called of course triumphs, their triumphal parades. The gen victorious general would ride in a chariot wearing special clothes and his face would be painted. And he and his men, his men would march for the city with their arms. They'd be wearing, they'd be wearing their armor, carrying their arms. They would be pelted with flowers and people would be singing. And they go up to the capitol line hill to sacrifice to Jupiter, thanking him for the victory. They wanted to do it to inculcate the military spirit, to reward people, to make you them think you want to get kudos, you want to get applause in Rome, go out and conquer for the Fatherland. They also wanted to show who was boss. So in a typical triumph, you would have the enemy leadership on display and they would be humiliated that children, if possible, would be there as well, looking pathetic. And then the, the, to cap the whole thing off, they would murder. They would murder the, the enemy leader. They'd bring him to a special prison near the forum and they would kill him there. So, and then they would have a gigantic barbecue for all the people of Rome to celebrate the event.

- Not, not the same as the American Republic. Now, is it?

- No, a little bit different than the American Republic.

- What else is different? Barry is descent, public descent. So this war begins, and very quickly Trump is criticized openly by Democrats, by people on the left, unjust, so on and so forth. What would happen in ancient Robury if you decided as center, a mouth off against the war?

- Oh, there was lots of dissent in Rome against wars, against Caesar in Gaul. There was a lot of dissent. His arch enemy in the Senate, Cato argues that Caesar is fighting an illegitimate and unjust war. War against the noble freedom loving Gallic people. And the punishment he deserves is that we should arrest him. That we should hog tie him and hand him over to the galls to do what they want with him. So plenty of dissent in Rome against war.

- Okay, what happens Toda, at the end of the day?

- Well, Cato leads the charge against Caesar more than anyone else. He is responsible for bringing on the civil war, for refusing to allow Caesar to hold a triumph of refusing, to allow Caesar to be elected. Cons. The second time he has the Senate vote to kick Caesar out of office, and he fights to the death against Caesar. He's eventually cornered by Caesar in a city in what is now today Tunisia. And Caesar offers him clemency. Caesar pardoned most of his enemies. He offered clemency a pardon to Cato. And Cato's response was to commit suicide rather than accept a pardon from this awful, awful man.

- So a rougher fate than say you're Chuck Schumer and your fate may be getting primary by a OC in 2028,

- Right? Yes. A much rougher fate than being primary by a OC.

- By the way, Barry Caesar's insistence upon pardoning his foes that contributes to his demise. Does it not?

- It does. Some of the people who he pardoned are among the assassins, including Brutus and Cassius, two of the big three responsible for assassination had been pardoned by Caesar and this is how they thank him.

- So do you think Donald Trump has taken note of that?

- Well, he might wanna have a bodyguard to be careful around the people he's pardoned. By the way, Caesar dismissed his bodyguard. Caesar refused to have a bodyguard when he walked in Rome, because he said, this is what, only tyrants have bodyguards. I'm not a tyrant, I'm an ordinary Roman citizen, just like the rest of you. And I will not have a bodyguard. He also was very arrogant and he thought that nobody would be so crazy as to assassinate him and reignite the flames of civil war. And finally, Caesar was a risk taker. He loved taking risks. He knew there was a risk for of assassination. He didn't care and that doesn't end

- Okay. He would've had one bodyguard. So a alternative history. He has one bodyguard with him on March 15th, but there're what, like 60 senators who have knives that day.

- Yeah, he did have a his. Mark Anthony, as you said, he's this big tough, strong guy and he Caesars close ally and he is one of the two consoles at the time, or he is a cons at the time. And had he been sitting next to Caesar on the days in the Senate house, he might have been able to prevent the assassination. However, the assassins had thought about this and one of them made a point of buttonholing Anthony outside the Senate door to prevent Anthony from going into the meeting of the Senate. Even so, when the assassination begins, there are two men in the Senate who get up and try to save Caesar, but the assassins have two senators that is the assassins have created a perimeter around Caesar. They formed a perimeter. So these would-be rescuers can't succeed, they can't get to Caesar to save 'em in time.

- Right. Alright, finally, let's talk a little bit about regime change itself, Barry? Yes. The idea of regime surrendering. So we're at something of a crossroads in the Iran campaign right

- Now. Yes, the

- President, the President will have you believe that this is going to end soon. That we are overwhelming them militarily. And it's, it's about to end. On the other hand, the Iranians have what just installed as their new supreme leader, the son of the murdered Supreme leader. Right. Although we haven't seen him in public yet, have we? So there's a question about whether or not he is alive, I guess. And yes, it's gonna be, but the point here is this either a country caves or the country keeps on fighting. So explain a little bit the Roman experience with this, and I think two you wanna highlight would be the galls, but then going back to your book Bro's. Experience with the Jews.

- Yeah, well lemme just say that you know, there's a third alternative, which is that the United States shows that it can guarantee the security of the Persian Gulf and that the Iranians do not have the power to disrupt trade in the Persian Gulf and cannot close the straight of four moves.

- Okay. - And that could end with something like the current regime in place, but one that has been shown to be a, can be defeated by American arms. So, sorry, what was your question again?

- So Rome's experience with regime surrender the galls, for example, but then Rome's experience with a opponent which just won't quit the,

- So, you know there, there are opponents that refuse to quit against the Romans. The Germans are the most successful, such people. They ambush the Romans at the Tud Burger Wood in the year nine ad, and they destroyed three Roman legions, which quick rather quickly ends the Roman ambition to conquer Germany up to the elbow river. Romans are forced to be on the West Bank of the Rhine. By and large, two other peoples who refuse to give in are the Brits and the Jews. Now the Romans were able to conquer Britain up to what's now Hadrian's wall and then briefly up to Edinburgh. But by and large, the Romans fail to ever conquer Scotland. Caledonia, the resistance is just too tough with the Jews. The Jews rebel against the Romans multiple times. The three major rebellions, there are three ma, there are three major rebellions, three big ones that cause the Romans no end of trouble. And the only way the Romans can end these rebellions is genocide, if you will. They destroy the city of Jerusalem. They destroy the temple. They ultimately drive out most of the Jews from ancient Israel. And they even renamed the province. It's the only case of the Romans renaming a province as punishment for a a revolt. They changed the name from Judea, which is the name that the Jews wanted to Syria, Palestina, which is the name that the Greek speakers there wanted. The Jews refused to surrender in the first revolt when the Romans surrounded laid, laid siege to the Jewish capital of the city of Jerusalem. And they refused to surrender for two reasons. A good rational reason is that the walls of Jerusalem were very strong, one of the best fortress cities in the ancient world. And they thought they could get the Romans to give up before they could take the city. Just as the Iranians are counting on the Americans to give up before they can really put the kibosh on the regime. The other reason also somewhat similar to Iran is ideology. Some of the rebels really believe they are fighting a Holy War, and that Judea is God's country and they cannot allow the pagan Romans to take control of the holy city of Jerusalem. So in both cases there's some spinning of rational hopes and some influence of ideology to keep people fighting.

- If I don't know Barry, it's a historian's note, but it's an ironic one as well, right? The Iranian theocracy seems to exist for one reason, and that is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. Yes. But going back to ancient times, this has not always been the relationship between the two, has it?

- No. On the contrary, the relationship between the Jewish people and the Iranian people in ancient times was, was excellent. Cyrus the great, the founder of the first Persian empire liberates the Jews from their exile in Babylon. The famous Babylonian captivity allows them to go back to Israel and to rebuild Jerusalem. And the temple. Later on, after the Romans had conquered Judea, the Ians and people in the Parthian Empire are offering help to the rebels against Rome. Not as much as the rebels wanted. They didn't come through in a big way, alas. But the rebels are always looking to part there for help play a big, big role in the second rebellion and not so much a revolt role in the third rebellion, but it's not through a want of trying on the half part of the rebels. And then centuries later, hundreds and hundreds of years in the year six 14, an Iranian empire invades what's now Palestine. And once again, they liberate the Jews and allow the Jews to take over the city of Jerusalem, which they control for three years before that comes to an end. So it is a very tragic irony that today the Iranian regime, as you say, should exist for the purpose of destroying the state of Israel, which is no threat to it whatsoever.

- Alright, finally, Barry, the Hoover Institution, we are lucky to count among our colleagues, the storied Marine General Jim Mass.

- Yes. - Who was of course a decorated combat officer, but also as you know, is a reader of books and that is famous for wherever he would go. He was taking book collection with him, literally out in the middle of the desert, if need be. Your advice, Barry, to the people in our government who are leading us through wars right now, can you direct them to one or two books by Romans that they should be reading?

- Oh yes. There are so many. I would certainly direct, I would direct them to TAUs and to Plutarch. I would have them read Plutarch's Lies as the famous lives of the Noble Grisha and Romans. I think those are eternally, they're evergreen. They're evergreen lessons there for leaders. So Pluto was a Greek speaker, but he lived in the Roman Empire and he held an office, a governmental office in the time of the Roman Empire.

- What would they learn from reading plu Tarsis?

- They would learn that from Pluto. They might learn that the ultimate virtue is pr, practical wisdom or prudence, foris in Greek, prudent in Latin that you can't count on luck, but that you need to have this practical wisdom as well. I think from Tacitus, they would learn about the fortunes of war and how unpredictable the fortunes of war are, and how one has to, again, be very cautious. I mean, you have to be bold and Plutarch two thinks that you need to be bold, but you always have to weigh, you always have to weigh the risks.

- And finally, Barry, you, what are you reading these days and what are you working on?

- I gotta admit, I'm reading a lot of Ro, I'm rereading Ross McDonald, one of my favorite detective novelists. I think he is just one, a fantastic writer, believe it or not. He was a student of WH Auden, the poet and his detective novels are the most uncannily poetic detective novels you'll ever read. They're also almost all set in California. So now that I'm a Californian, it especially appeals to me. I'm working on a book on the history of military deception from the Trojan horse to the present. Just the modest undertaking, and I'm loving it. It's really a fascinating thing to dive into.

- Let me know when you get to Operation Mid Speed.

- Oh, operation Mid Speed is part of it. Have you seen the play, have you seen the musical in New York?

- No, I've seen the movie, but not the, there's a musical. Is

- The musical

- From, do you, do you wanna explain what we're talking about with Operation Mi?

- Yes. Operation Mince Meet, which was originally called Operation Trojan Horse, by the way.

- Yes. - Was this amazing British operation in 1943 when the Brits wanted to convince the Germans that the next target would not be Sicily after conquering North Africa, but rather Sardinia or Greece. And so they get a corpse, a British corpse, they dress him up as a naval officer and they drop him on off a submarine off the coast of Spain, chain to his hand as a briefcase with allegedly secret documents saying where this is the offensive is gonna be. And the Brits know that the allegedly neutral span Spaniards would've give this to the Germans. And they do give this to the Germans, and the Germans take the bait and they have fewer troops in Sicily than they might have otherwise. When the Allies invade in July of 1943, yes, there is a mus, there is a musical, and the musical is excellent. I've seen it on Broadway. It's absolutely terrific. I highly recommend it.

- It's a great story of subterfuge. And also how, just what attention to detail as I remember it correctly, they wanted to pick somebody who obviously would come across as authentic, but kind of an everyman. They did little things where I put ticket stubs in his pockets and things like that just to Yes. Just to show that he had a life, just to make him more human.

- Yeah. Then there's a, a really good book about called Operation Mince Meat. There's a wonderful older book by one of the, the planners of this operation called The Man Who Never Was.

- Yes.

- And it's made into a, a good movie in the 1950s as well.

- Very good. Well, Barry, I enjoyed the conversation and thank you. We live, we live in interesting times, don't we?

- We sure do.

- Okay. You've been listening to matters of Policy and Politics, a podcast devoted to the discussion of policy research from the Hoover Institution, as well as issues with local, national, and geopolitical concern. If you enjoy this podcast, please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to our show. And if you wouldn't mind, spread the word, tell your friends about us. The Hoover Institution has Facebook, Instagram, and X feeds. Rx handle is at Hoover. That's spelled H-O-O-B-E-R-I-N-S-T. I mentioned Barry's book at the beginning of this podcast and referenced a couple more times. Its title is Jews versus Rome, two Centuries of Rebellion Against the World's Mightiest People. You can get that I think, at Amazon and other places itself. Books why? Right. Don't you also sign up for the Hoover Daily report, which keeps you updated on what Barry Strauss and is Hoover colleagues are up to. And that's delivered to your inbox weekdays for the Hoover Institution. This is Bill Waylon. Till next time, take care. Thanks for listening and strengthen honor. Folks,

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